This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.

Which Delta Quadrant group/team/species do you most want to see in 1E?

Ocampa
9
10%
Talaxian
7
8%
The 37's
9
10%
Sikarians
4
5%
Voth
11
13%
Vaadwaur
6
7%
Devore
5
6%
Krenim
27
31%
Overlookers / The Hierachy
7
8%
Mari
1
1%
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#591794
I love these Krenim ideas, extremely flavorful, fun, and fresh kinds of interaction.

I do have the same concern about game length.

BCSWowbagger wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:31 pm (Basically, my vision for the Krenim is that they add extreme variance, but, on balance, not very much advantage. They might make the game longer, but just as often will make it shorter, and most often it will balance out. In my thinking, they're a faction for a player who doesn't necessarily want to win, but who absolutely wants to cause chaos. Like @JeBuS!)
This is a good thought, but I'm not sure it's so simple. Adding variance to game time would "balance out" if the "cost" of a game was directly proportional to its length (a 60-minute game is exactly twice as onerous as a 30-minute game). In a tournament, having a hard time limit both increases the "cost" of long games significantly (which are disrupted more when cut short and modified wins assigned), and decreases the "benefit" of short games slightly (you still have to wait around until all the games wrap up before the next round begins). This imposes risk aversion on us; adding variance isn't neutral but makes things worse.
Coincidentally, I am teaching engineering statistics this semester and am looking for new real-world examples... I may be able to adapt this illustration in some way when we get to Jensen's inequality in a few weeks!


One way to compensate is to tilt the outcomes (or probabilities!) towards *shortening* the game, rather than *lengthening* it, but not necessarily to the advantage of either player. e.g., have outcomes such as "20 additional points are needed for any player to win" and "30 fewer points are needed for any player to win" be equally likely among the options. Or have three equally-likely outcomes as "clear opponent's mission", "clear my mission", "undo my mission".
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Executive Officer
By jadziadax8 (Maggie Geppert)
 - Executive Officer
 -  
2E North American Continental Semi-Finalist 2023
ibbles  Trek Masters Tribbles Champion 2023
2E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#591798
BCSWowbagger wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:43 am For example, I had pictured the Krenim Weapon Ship as an incident that jumps around all spaceline at random, wreaking havoc where it lands.
[Self] ?
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 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#591800
Guys, guys, guys there's an option here that you arent seeing:

Expand the sandbox!

- Temporal effects doorway side deck (x different cards (new card type), shuffled, play a card from the top of it whenever there is an temporal effects or incursion)
- design a BUNCH of this new card type and soft enforce you must play with a lot of different ones in the deck.
- chroniton torpedo tactic (temporal effect)
- Krenim time ship (does incursions)
- Make some time based events and dilemmas that do temporal effects - probably download a specific temporal effects out of the side deck. (New version/Errata version of Temporal causality loop LETS GO!!!!!!)
- new personnel that download cards out of this new side deck.

Open it up to every affiliation but then just make the Krenim use it a lot more/better.


[Temporal effect]. Grandfather Paradox

Randomly selects a personnel at this location to be removed from the game.


[Temporal effects]. Glimpse the future

Plays on a mission. All players examine all seed cards under this mission. If a player fails a mission or scouting attempt here they lose 5 points (even if playing Borg).

[Temporal effects]. Time loop

Place on this mission, end attempt if any in progress. Any player may download a dilemma here. Ignore any effects preventing you from attempting this mission. Whenever a mission or scouting attempt here ends, if the mission or scouting not complete, any player may download and seed 2 dilemmas here.

[1E-S] Temporal Causality loop

Download Time loop onto this mission.

[Fed] Miles O'Brien [1E-DS9]

Engineer

Took a high dose of radiation that interacted with an orbiting Micro singularity causing him to time jump into the future. Side effects hampered and eventually killed him.

[SD] Engineer. [SD] Computer skill [SD] Security [SD] Transporter skill [DL] Glimpse the Future

7- 7 - 6
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#591801
Armus wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 2:32 pm
boromirofborg wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 1:17 pm For Krenim, I'd love a way to make an opponent's mission unsolved, reseed/download dilemmas, and lose the points. Rewind the time with some changes. (Different dilemmas).

Of course doing this would have to be medium difficulty.
I love this idea thematically. I'm not sure I'm the biggest fan gameplay-wise for a couple of reasons, but the main one is that it would add more time (no pun intended) to a game that even in a solver vs solver match already runs really long.

It would definitely open up some new dilemma strategies though, so that's a plus I suppose.
Length already crossed my mind as an obstacle. In my brief thoughts about it, the steps required to do so would be similar to the Borg having to Stop First contact or similar. If you do it, you've basically won, but with flavor.

Undoing the mission should be enough to put you ahead, them behind, while also in an untimed game, give lot of flavor and a chance to still come back.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#591812
Rachmaninoff wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 7:53 am One way to compensate is to tilt the outcomes (or probabilities!) towards *shortening* the game, rather than *lengthening* it, but not necessarily to the advantage of either player. e.g., have outcomes such as "20 additional points are needed for any player to win" and "30 fewer points are needed for any player to win" be equally likely among the options. Or have three equally-likely outcomes as "clear opponent's mission", "clear my mission", "undo my mission".
That's reasonable!
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 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#591813
BCSWowbagger wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 12:35 pm
Rachmaninoff wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 7:53 am One way to compensate is to tilt the outcomes (or probabilities!) towards *shortening* the game, rather than *lengthening* it, but not necessarily to the advantage of either player. e.g., have outcomes such as "20 additional points are needed for any player to win" and "30 fewer points are needed for any player to win" be equally likely among the options. Or have three equally-likely outcomes as "clear opponent's mission", "clear my mission", "undo my mission".
That's reasonable!
Reasonable.....but I can't imagine any of them making it out of play testing and even if they do, they would likely toned down defeating the point. If I was proven wrong , I can't imagine this as a popular thing or a good thing for the game - players tend to be averse to such luck based swings - especially in tournaments.
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#591816
Hoss-Drone wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 12:48 pm Reasonable.....but I can't imagine any of them making it out of play testing and even if they do, they would likely toned down defeating the point. If I was proven wrong , I can't imagine this as a popular thing or a good thing for the game - players tend to be averse to such luck based swings - especially in tournaments.
Does it need to be a tournament thing?
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By Enabran
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
2E Austrian National Second Runner-Up 2022
#591817
I once (20 years ago) made a Krenim Sub affiliation:
Key card was an Objective:

Time Intervention
Target a Homeworld. If you have Annorax's Timeship and Time Skill x3 orbiting that planet you may probe:
Personnel: Time line disrupted. Discard objective and all cards matching that homeworld's affiliation. Scoe 1 point for every discarded card.
[Inc] , [1E-Int] : Wrong calculation: Place in hand one of your ships and your opponent must (if possible) report one ship at any matching affiliation.

Krenim warships were flipable. Each time the timline was changed. One side was a weak ship one was a mighty Warship.

The memories of my other cards were lost over the years. I am sure dreamcards of it are on the one or other storage medium.
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 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#591821
AllenGould wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:45 pm
Hoss-Drone wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 12:48 pm Reasonable.....but I can't imagine any of them making it out of play testing and even if they do, they would likely toned down defeating the point. If I was proven wrong , I can't imagine this as a popular thing or a good thing for the game - players tend to be averse to such luck based swings - especially in tournaments.
Does it need to be a tournament thing?
No, but I don't know many people who want to sit down for any game outside of a casino where winning would be mostly random chance.
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#591841
Hoss-Drone wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:44 pm
AllenGould wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:45 pm Does it need to be a tournament thing?
No, but I don't know many people who want to sit down for any game outside of a casino where winning would be mostly random chance.
Krennim might be a good choice for Trek's version of horde mode (or other co-op/PvE format), or possibly something 1vX.

Put simply - we're not exactly lacking in playable factions, so stuff like Krennim that could fill a niche we don't have right now seems more valuable than just some warm bodies in the DQ.
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By WeAreBack
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#592033
I was just watching the pilot episode of That 90s Show this weekend on Netlflix.

As critical is to get the gameplay right for the Krenim, let's not forget that Kurtwood's Smith's portrayl of Annorax needs a recognition in lore of his most iconic character. My personal suggestion is that the last sentence of his lore read:

Not as dumb as some believe.
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First Edition Creative Manager
By KazonPADD (Paddy Tye)
 - First Edition Creative Manager
 -  
1E European Continental Runner-Up 2023
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Champion 2023
#592037
WeAreBack wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:19 am I was just watching the pilot episode of That 90s Show this weekend on Netlflix.

As critical is to get the gameplay right for the Krenim, let's not forget that Kurtwood's Smith's portrayl of Annorax needs a recognition in lore of his most iconic character. My personal suggestion is that the last sentence of his lore read:

Not as dumb as some believe.
Nice… I’ll try to remember that one for future…
User avatar
 
By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#592039
Hoss-Drone wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:28 am Guys, guys, guys there's an option here that you arent seeing:

Expand the sandbox!

- Temporal effects doorway side deck (x different cards (new card type), shuffled, play a card from the top of it whenever there is an temporal effects or incursion)
- design a BUNCH of this new card type and soft enforce you must play with a lot of different ones in the deck.
- chroniton torpedo tactic (temporal effect)
- Krenim time ship (does incursions)
- Make some time based events and dilemmas that do temporal effects - probably download a specific temporal effects out of the side deck. (New version/Errata version of Temporal causality loop LETS GO!!!!!!)
- new personnel that download cards out of this new side deck.

Open it up to every affiliation but then just make the Krenim use it a lot more/better.


[Temporal effect]. Grandfather Paradox

Randomly selects a personnel at this location to be removed from the game.


[Temporal effects]. Glimpse the future

Plays on a mission. All players examine all seed cards under this mission. If a player fails a mission or scouting attempt here they lose 5 points (even if playing Borg).

[Temporal effects]. Time loop

Place on this mission, end attempt if any in progress. Any player may download a dilemma here. Ignore any effects preventing you from attempting this mission. Whenever a mission or scouting attempt here ends, if the mission or scouting not complete, any player may download and seed 2 dilemmas here.

[1E-S] Temporal Causality loop

Download Time loop onto this mission.

[Fed] Miles O'Brien [1E-DS9]

Engineer

Took a high dose of radiation that interacted with an orbiting Micro singularity causing him to time jump into the future. Side effects hampered and eventually killed him.

[SD] Engineer. [SD] Computer skill [SD] Security [SD] Transporter skill [DL] Glimpse the Future

7- 7 - 6
All this, and have it actually include the time line disrupted effects already in the game, and take them from the glossary to the cards. Those cards can download their specific effects like your other ideas.

Then bring back Incursions with out the wall aspect, instead Randomly select an "Incursion" from the Temporal side deck.
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 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#592111
winterflames wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:27 am
All this, and have it actually include the time line disrupted effects already in the game, and take them from the glossary to the cards. Those cards can download their specific effects like your other ideas.

Then bring back Incursions with out the wall aspect, instead Randomly select an "Incursion" from the Temporal side deck.
Love it. Since it would be a new card type the template can be anything so it would have all the room needed for the text. If anything, probably best if it didn't have a picture and let the picture on the card triggering it get the glory lol.

(Though I would have Incursions trigger a minimum 2 incursions since ya know...it's plural :P )

Edit: If I was on design the Pitch card would be:

[Door] Temporal disruption Door.

Seed one on table. Your temporal effects and incursions side deck is now open and in play (immune to cards which close doorways. Must contain at least 13 different [insert new icon here] cards.) OR Plays on a location (once per game) to double effects of all temporal effects there.
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