[Lobo]

-Does a Mission II count as a seed card against the 30 limit, either/both sides?

Sorry for basic Q, Glossary doesn't specifically say in the 'mission II' info.

Thanks.

[Ashigaru]

Just as one of your six mission cards.

[Lobo]

Just as one of your six mission cards.

-Great, thanks!

[Ashigaru]

That's the whole allure of the Mission IIs with built in outposts - it saves you a seed slot on an outpost at the cost of 5 points off the mission. If the prebuilt outposts cost a seed slot, they'd pretty much have no reason to exist (sure you could keep rebuilding it, but if your opponent can blow it up once, they can blow it up twice along with the ship you rebuild it off of.)

[phaserihardlyknowher]

That's the whole allure of the Mission IIs with built in outposts - it saves you a seed slot on an outpost at the cost of 5 points off the mission. If the prebuilt outposts cost a seed slot, they'd pretty much have no reason to exist (sure you could keep rebuilding it, but if your opponent can blow it up once, they can blow it up twice along with the ship you rebuild it off of.)

Not just losing 5 points on a mission, but also losing the ability to place your outpost stragically. For all we gripe about balance, this is the kind of tradeoff I like in card games. Seed slots are valuable, but so are mission strategies and space line distance. Pick one.

On a more specific note, I feel like I see Mission II in decks with some other specialized facility type to provide a place to send AMS or just another reporting option.

[OrionSyndicate]

A quick thought experiment.

If the cost of an extra seed cost is roughly 5 points, how about a card that seeds for -5 points but allows you to download 2 other seed cards?

[stressedoutatumc]

A quick thought experiment.

If the cost of an extra seed cost is roughly 5 points, how about a card that seeds for -5 points but allows you to download 2 other seed cards?

I would say bad idea in an era where bonus points are STILL out of control. I can make up that 5 points pretty easily, and then I get an extra seed card? I’ll take that any time, any day.

[boromirofborg]

A quick thought experiment.

If the cost of an extra seed cost is roughly 5 points, how about a card that seeds for -5 points but allows you to download 2 other seed cards?

I would say bad idea in an era where bonus points are STILL out of control. I can make up that 5 points pretty easily, and then I get an extra seed card? I’ll take that any time, any day.

depends on the seed card. If any, that probably under costed. If limited to dilemmas, *that* might be interesting.

If you really want it to be interesting design space, -5 points to seed two extra dilemmas but those dilemmas have to have point boxes...

[Rachmaninoff]

A quick thought experiment.

If the cost of an extra seed cost is roughly 5 points, how about a card that seeds for -5 points but allows you to download 2 other seed cards?

I would say bad idea in an era where bonus points are STILL out of control. I can make up that 5 points pretty easily, and then I get an extra seed card? I’ll take that any time, any day.

You may be right. In the spirit of this being a thought experiment, two follow-on questions:

1. Does this imply that Mission II's are undercosted?

2. How much of a point loss would it take before you decide it's NOT worth it? (I'm pretty sure you wouldn't agree to lose 100 points to gain 1 extra seed card.)

2a. How would your answer change based on what kind of extra card you would be allowed to seed (facility vs dilemma vs incident vs...)

I honestly don't have a good intuition on these questions.

[AllenGould]

1. Does this imply that Mission II's are undercosted?

I think it implies that a mission seed has a different worth than a seed-deck seed. Five mission points is worth more than five bonus points, for instance. And there's also costs around limits (you only get a facility; you have to use specific missions, probably more.)

2. How much of a point loss would it take before you decide it's NOT worth it? (I'm pretty sure you wouldn't agree to lose 100 points to gain 1 extra seed card.)

2a. How would your answer change based on what kind of extra card you would be allowed to seed (facility vs dilemma vs incident vs...)

I honestly don't have a good intuition on these questions.

I suspect the ceiling is pretty high for an 31st seed, because you can't really limit it. (Think on Mission IIs - it gives you an outpost, but you're replacing it in the 30 with other stuff.) And that means that folks aren't adding a dilemma; they're adding draw and play engines.

(It's actually even a bit better, since in order to sneak in an extra "seed" it'd need to be a download, which means you're giving them a seed they can change at run-time.)

[WeAreBack]

Do not forget that the number of missions itself is limited and a limiting factor in deck construction. There are missions that allow downloads mission IIs, like Visit Parallel Universe -- which has a pretty similar cost to missions IIs in that you have to seed a fairly low point mission.

There are also cards like homeworlds, planets that let you download an emblem card and spaceline locations that correspond to time locations that provide free plays. All of these which other than Police Trade Route, which caries an implied cost of being a 40 point mission your opponent can attempt using any personnel, are planet missions. You are limited to at most 4 planet missions in most decks.

For the cost to be similar to a mission II, the card itself would have to be a mission and it couldn't let you download ANY card. This is why I liked the proposed card from the 2024 March Madness that let you download a Shades of Gray card.

If you want a card that is -5 points and seeds free, I would go with something basic like a an door. Remember, when Au door was released the "30/30 rule" -- limiting players to 30 seed cards -- was not in effect yet. Thus, there was no additional "cost" just to include cards from the new set in your deck. (And hence the crumminess of many early dilemmas -- you were not limited in principle to any specific number of them.)

[stressedoutatumc]

A quick thought experiment.

If the cost of an extra seed cost is roughly 5 points, how about a card that seeds for -5 points but allows you to download 2 other seed cards?

I would say bad idea in an era where bonus points are STILL out of control. I can make up that 5 points pretty easily, and then I get an extra seed card? I’ll take that any time, any day.

You may be right. In the spirit of this being a thought experiment, two follow-on questions:

1. Does this imply that Mission II's are undercosted?

2. How much of a point loss would it take before you decide it's NOT worth it? (I'm pretty sure you wouldn't agree to lose 100 points to gain 1 extra seed card.)

2a. How would your answer change based on what kind of extra card you would be allowed to seed (facility vs dilemma vs incident vs...)

I honestly don't have a good intuition on these questions.

I think the cost is appropriate. They know what you are playing and where at least one facility will be located. If that matters to your opponent you gave away a lot for that outpost. If it doesn’t, then you get your outpost completely for free.

I think it will get really murky otherwise.

[stressedoutatumc]

A quick thought experiment.

If the cost of an extra seed cost is roughly 5 points, how about a card that seeds for -5 points but allows you to download 2 other seed cards?

I would say bad idea in an era where bonus points are STILL out of control. I can make up that 5 points pretty easily, and then I get an extra seed card? I’ll take that any time, any day.

depends on the seed card. If any, that probably under costed. If limited to dilemmas, *that* might be interesting.

If you really want it to be interesting design space, -5 points to seed two extra dilemmas but those dilemmas have to have point boxes...

The issue that will come up with those conditionals are the players who think they are lawyers. If the two seed cards must have boxes then it’s reasonable to challenge that during the seed phase itself. The only way to confirm that would be to show your opponent or the TD who is also someone you will have to play,

[AllenGould]

The issue that will come up with those conditionals are the players who think they are lawyers. If the two seed cards must have boxes then it’s reasonable to challenge that during the seed phase itself. The only way to confirm that would be to show your opponent or the TD who is also someone you will have to play,

If someone shows up with 32 cards in the seed deck, I would hope *everyone* would call a TD, because it's an illegal deck on the face of it.

[stressedoutatumc]

The issue that will come up with those conditionals are the players who think they are lawyers. If the two seed cards must have boxes then it’s reasonable to challenge that during the seed phase itself. The only way to confirm that would be to show your opponent or the TD who is also someone you will have to play,

If someone shows up with 32 cards in the seed deck, I would hope *everyone* would call a TD, because it's an illegal deck on the face of it.

100% I meant it more of they kind of player that knows how to extract information. There would be a situation where you have 32 cards, some of them are traded off for seeding dilemma, I would get to perhaps see the dilemma that they are seeding as extras. I just meant I can see how you can exploit a situation as an extreme version of the seed for more dilemma suggestion.

I think the Mission II's are well balanced. A 20 or 25 pt mission is just so hard to accept in today's game unless you are intentionally doing all of them to gain an advantage.