[whitestar29]

Let us set a few things straight.

Watch your tone Miles. If you cannot debate the substance of my interpretation I am not going to dignify your posts with a rebuttal.

Here is my original interpretation worded as simply as possible:

While the rules mention downloading in the section that outlines what you can do in the play a card segment of your turn, there is nowhere in the rules that specifically says you may take any action if the result will be downloading a card.

The entry in the glossary is vague, subjective. The rulebook section referenced is not permission giving, but a reminder of how to play more than one card. Because there is no concrete "you may take any action that will allow you to download a card" anywhere, I am forced to rule against allowing this.

[Dukat]

Have you read my post on the previous page?
Your interpretation is as flawed as ours since the glossary is not clear on that.

Do you think it is wise to change something that has been done for about 10 years?
It could also count for QIR.

In my opinion, there have been enough changes before Worlds.

A lot of people count on these rules that has been - as I said - practised for a decade and since the glossary does not state against it, explicitly or implicitly, we should keep it as it is / was.
No need to unsettle people.

[Tim]

Whitestar, I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but STCCG 1E is a complex game where the rules are very important. This game needs rules that both players know and follow for a game to work and be fun. The implications of this ruling are broader than slowing a Ferengi deck down (which I admit makes me a little biased against this) as downloading is an important mechanic.

I respect your authority regarding rulings and after your last post a few of us wrote near dissertations on why your hermeneutics and logic are in error, so I understand why you didn't want to try to respond to everything... but PLEASE try to answer a couple questions so I can understand what is going on here:

What is the action or sub-action involved with the 1st Rule download that is distinct from downloading and not legal in the play phase? How do we recognize it?

Does this apply to other "download to hand," such as Quark's Isolinear Rods? What makes QIR the same (or different)?

Does this apply to regular downloads, such as Defend Homeworld? What makes DH the same (or different)?


Give me some short answers to these three questions and I'll be happy and shut up.

Thanks,
Tim

[MilesStuntDouble]

While the rules mention downloading in the section that outlines what you can do in the play a card segment of your turn, there is nowhere in the rules that specifically says you may take any action if the result will be downloading a card.

The entry in the glossary is vague, subjective. The rulebook section referenced is not permission giving, but a reminder of how to play more than one card. Because there is no concrete "you may take any action that will allow you to download a card" anywhere, I am forced to rule against allowing this.

So what is the point of the 'downloading' entry then? Under your interpretation, there is no reason to mention downloading at all. For if the download comes as the result of another legal action, then that download action is allowed as a part the sub-action clause.

Further, if the 'playing and downloading' entry does not cover "actions that result in playing or downloading", then the list is neglecting any and all "in place of your card play" actions. Including Spacedoor, Ops, etc. Or are you going to rule that you can't use those actions as well?

As such, it is very clear that the intention of "playing and downloading" is to allow any action which plays and/or downloads cards even if that action has auxiliary effects- however small or big.

[Caretaker's Guest]

The way we played 1st RoA over here for 11 years since its first appearance was:
Downloading Nagus + Latinum wasn't allowed during seed phase, but before your card play during your first turn.
This is going to change right now?????
Did all the rule masters and TDs of those times overlook something whitestar found or is it only an overinterpretation from his part?

[whitestar29]

I understand that many groups have played it one way. While I do take that into consideration on things like this, I cannot make rulings based on "this is how we have always done it" arguments. Sometimes we were always wrong, like with Hard Time for all you 2E players.

I will only make rulings based on the documentation available to me. I do not have the benefit of being able to research all the old Decipher rulings and boards. I do not have the benefit of having a previous 1E rules master/head judge/whatever to consult at times like this. I cant even ask Jeremy Commandeur how his rules guy would deal with this, because that was me. I only have the documents available on the front page (many of which I supplied to TCC during my days as a simple Rules Committee Chairman). In the case where I cannot find explicit support, a related example, or a similar rules situation I can use to create a ruling, I am going to err towards no. If a rule or card does not say you can do it, you cannot do it.

So here we have a unique situation where there is compelling (but not conclusive) support for allowing players to execute orders allowing downloading during their play a card segment. The arguments against this have as little rules support as the ones for this. So I made my ruling based on caution. Lack of support is lack of support.

I understand that this changes how things have been played, and worlds is upon us. So I am suspending all rulings in this thread until the rules committee can create a properly defined entry based on how they think this should work. It is most likely going to be the November updates that address this, as there is not much time until the October release date. Until this entry is released, I leave this up to the TDs. Please ask your TD if this is allowed before the start of any events that take place before a rules update can be published.

Yes this includes the World Championship. The TD in charge (Thomas Schneider) will have the say on if this is allowed.

[Carwash]

^ this

[Tim]

Does this effect any other cards?

[MilesStuntDouble]

Any card that downloads.

[Tim]

Any card that downloads.

Are you kidding?

[Dukat]

@Whitestar: What about Quark's Isolinear Rods?

[AllenGould]

Yes this includes the World Championship. The TD in charge (Thomas Schneider) will have the say on if this is allowed.

Will Thomas be giving a ruling before the event? (Considering that how this goes will probably affect decks, and I'd hate to be Mr. Schneider the day of the event...)

[thsch]

Yes this includes the World Championship. The TD in charge (Thomas Schneider) will have the say on if this is allowed.

Will Thomas be giving a ruling before the event? (Considering that how this goes will probably affect decks, and I'd hate to be Mr. Schneider the day of the event...)

I asked Tyler Fultz who will be judging 1E Worlds. He is currently thinking about this question. As soon as he has come to a conclusion, one of us will post here.

[MilesStuntDouble]

Any card that downloads.

Are you kidding?

No, I am not kidding.

If in fact, the "turns" entry does not cover an action that downloads, then I have no choice but to conclude that no download (unless it is allowed "at any time" or by an interrupt) is not permitted during that segment of the turn. Ironically, this would include downloads that happen "in place of your normal card play".

[AllenGould]

Any card that downloads.

Are you kidding?

No, I am not kidding.

If in fact, the "turns" entry does not cover an action that downloads, then I have no choice but to conclude that no download (unless it is allowed "at any time" or by an interrupt) is not permitted during that segment of the turn. Ironically, this would include downloads that happen "in place of your normal card play".

Except that the fact that the ability explicitly tells you when to do it would trump anything in the rulebook anyway. So no need to panic there.