[MilesStuntDouble]

However, according to Nick's interpretation, such an action would not be covered by the "turns" entry; and hence, would advance your turn.

[DJstormtrooper]

Gentlemen,

I understand that this is a very concerning issue for 1E players. I do not want to step on the 1E Rules Comittees toes; however, it is clear that a ruling must be made. I want to make it clear that the ruling below will only affect play at Worlds 2010 and in no way represents the 1E Rules Comittee or is reflective of what their final decision on this matter will be.

Since the majority of 1E players have been playing with dowloads being a legal part of the "Play a Card" segment, and since the glossary clearly states that downloads are a permissble action in this phase, I rule that downloads are a permissble action in this phase regardless of whether the card is put into play, into hand or another location. Using a download action on a card does not automatically advance you to the "Execute Orders" phase of your turn.

Anyone who has questions prior to the event can feel free to contact me via PM or this thread.

[whitestar29]

However, according to Nick's interpretation, such an action would not be covered by the "turns" entry; and hence, would advance your turn.

Franklin, I know you are still pissed off at me, but please stop trying to undermine me and my position. I can speak for myself a whole lot better than you can. You still fail to understand my argument. You do not even try to support your own, because it has just as little rules backing. We disagree here. I have the authority to make rulings. I did. Then, out of respect to the community, I backed off my ruling for now so not to upset things just before the world championship. Can you stop attacking me and try to show a little respect in turn?

[whitestar29]

I am getting tired of cheap shots being taken against me. If Anyone wants to debate the substance of my ruling, I welcome it. Anyone who is just looking to tear me down because I did not rule like they would, please stay quiet. I will gladly give up the time I do not really have to explain things and help others understand. I am not going to just sit here and get shot at.

Thank you to those who simply asked questions looking for understanding. Also, thank you to those who respectfully disagreed with me, in the hopes of achieving mutual understanding. If I missed any of these posts in the cloud of rants, please repost them so I can reply. Lastly, thank you to DJstormtrooper for clearing up how this issue will be handled in the world championship.

[whitestar29]

If in fact, the "turns" entry does not cover an action that downloads, then I have no choice but to conclude that no download (unless it is allowed "at any time" or by an interrupt) is not permitted during that segment of the turn. Ironically, this would include downloads that happen "in place of your normal card play".

Except that the fact that the ability explicitly tells you when to do it would trump anything in the rulebook anyway. So no need to panic there.

Simply being involved in a download is allowed. It is the manner in which you are granted the download action that is in question. My question is what game text triggered the download? If the triggering text is allowed in the play a card (PaC) segment, then the download is allowed and the turn does not advance. Since your card play is allowed, it can be used to trigger a download in place of your normal card play.

If the action that triggers the download is not explicitly allowed during the PaC segment, then you cannot perform the action to activate the download without advancing the turn. So you cannot use organ theft to harvest ogans and download a vidiian without advancing the turn, since harvesting organs is not described in the "Turns" entry.

Cards like defend homeworld are a little grey here, so this is where my ruling is based. Since the initiating game text (usually discarding the card to...) is not included in the "turns' entry, I concluded that activating this game text would result in advancing the turn.

[Tim]

Well, I understand the argument Whitestar was making.

We have all made mistakes when it comes to 1E rules and most of us have gotten into arguments on message boards that we have taken a couple posts too far. The problem here is that, with Whitestar, what he says in this Gameplay (1E) board are considered official rulings.

As a player who really appreciates an active Rules Committee which is available to consult with I think it would be best if we could just move on. The Glossary Ver. 1.8 is not the holy Qur'an, and 1E Rules Masters are not Imams infallibly guided by the will of God to interpret everything correctly. We shouldn't expect that.

[FrakkinPhoenix]

So based on what I'm seeing, it looks like nothing you say is up for debate to question. Then when you're wrong, you change the rulebook to make yourself right? This is why downloads ARE allowed during the play phase. Relevant sections underlined.

From the Rulebook:
There are a few ways to play additional cards during your turn. ... Another way to play additional cards is with a card that allows downloading.

From the Glossary:
downloading – ...
When you choose the target card you must
show it to your opponent (even if it has a
hidden agenda icon), then you must
immediately play or report the card, unless the
card allowing the download:
• requires or allows you to download to hand
(e.g., Quark’s Isolinear Rods, 1st Rule of
Acquisition); or
...

turn – ...During your turn you will do up
to five things, in this order:
...
2. Play a card from your hand. This “normal
card play” is optional. All cards except
interrupts and doorways may be played
only at this time, even those that play “for
free,” unless a card specifically allows a
card play at another time.
During this segment of your turn, you may
take no actions other than:
• playing and downloading cards;


Note that someone mentioned that the Rulebook takes precedence over the Glossary. The two are meant to be used in conjunction with each other. The rulebook states very clearly in the beginning:
A term or phrase appearing in bold type indicates that there is
more information on the topic in the companion Glossary. The
Glossary explains topics in detail and addresses special terms which
may not be self-explanatory (e.g., downloading), as well as
including revised game text and answers to Frequently Asked
Questions (FAQs) on specific cards.
As such, "turn" and "downloading" were bolded in the Rulebook, so I had to use the glossary for that information.

It seems obvious that the rules allow downloading during the Play phase. Downloading is usually straight into play, however, a few cards specify that they go to hand. The rules specifically cover this and state that you are still allowed to download them during the play phase, except that they go to your hand instead of in play.

This new change to the glossary isn't a "ruling". It's a fundamental change to the rules of the game.

[jjh]

So this deck against a smart opponent (Ref Obelisk->Masaka away Zek) doesn't work at all now.

Lame.

[who'syourdaddy?]

I just happened upon this thread tonight and it seems that after perusing through the three pages of posts, that the rules committee, i.e. whitestar, has changed the rules of play regarding turns to fit his interpretation of downloading personnel w/o advancing to the execute orders phase.

Right or wrong, it comes across as more than a little heavy-handed to me.

[geronimo_apache]

FrakkinPhoenix- whitestar is not saying that he is never wrong, but as 1e rules master he is the guy with the ability to make rulings. All he is asking is that pot shots not be taken (as you started out) and people use good solid reasoning (like you did when you quoted the rules and glossary).

I know that this ruling is controversial but give it a try before you shoot it down. That is what Jeremy (hope I spelled his name correctly) asked of use in trying Revised and what was asked of us in other changes.

Also it is not just whitestar that makes rulings. There is a rules committee and there are responsible for the CRD's. The only reason whitestar takes so much flak is because he is listed as the 1e rules master. The other members are not mentioned (with good reason). I would assume that on this committee there is a majority vote (although I am not privy to such goings on). So if the rules committee released a new CRD and it changes the rule it was a group of people not just whitestar.

So lets stay away from flamming a person just because we don't like everything they do, or have a part in. Instead lets use reason and facts to backup our point.

Also remember this: a coworker once said to me the boss may not always be right, but he will always be the boss. The rules committee may not make every decision perfect all the time. They are the rules committee and that is who makes those decisions.

[FrakkinPhoenix]

If you have a problem with something I post, send me a PM. "Calling people out" on the boards does little to solve anything.

This is not a work place. This is a community. There are people in charge of things, but they are certainly not my bosses. I am here because of a passion for the game and as far as I know, I'm not getting paid to do so.

[who'syourdaddy?]

FrakkinPhoenix- whitestar is not saying that he is never wrong, but as 1e rules master he is the guy with the ability to make rulings. All he is asking is that pot shots not be taken (as you started out) and people use good solid reasoning (like you did when you quoted the rules and glossary).

I know that this ruling is controversial but give it a try before you shoot it down. That is what Jeremy (hope I spelled his name correctly) asked of use in trying Revised and what was asked of us in other changes.

Also it is not just whitestar that makes rulings. There is a rules committee and there are responsible for the CRD's.

So are you saying it is whitestar that makes the rulings or the committee? You seem to contradict yourself there.

The only reason whitestar takes so much flak is because he is listed as the 1e rules master. The other members are not mentioned (with good reason). I would assume that on this committee there is a majority vote (although I am not privy to such goings on). So if the rules committee released a new CRD and it changes the rule it was a group of people not just whitestar.

Maybe it would be a good idea to be "privy" to just how things go on before you use it to justify your position?

So lets stay away from flamming a person just because we don't like everything they do, or have a part in. Instead lets use reason and facts to backup our point.

Also remember this: a coworker once said to me the boss may not always be right, but he will always be the boss. The rules committee may not make every decision perfect all the time. They are the rules committee and that is who makes those decisions.

So you are saying the rules committee is our "boss"? How does that belief help foster effective communication within what seems to be a community and not a workplace?

[JasonRed3]

I just happened upon this thread tonight and it seems that after perusing through the three pages of posts, that the rules committee, i.e. whitestar, has changed the rules of play regarding turns to fit his interpretation of downloading personnel w/o advancing to the execute orders phase.

Right or wrong, it comes across as more than a little heavy-handed to me.

Just because whitestar is the head of the rules committee, and therefore also their spokesperson, does not mean that he acts alone as an individual, and it's not fair at all to cast him as a single person who is making a choice without consulting others.

We're a community, so we should try acting like one, rather than pointing fingers because things aren't always exactly how each person wants them. Things change, things get clarified, and that's just how it is... but to say that one person is responsible is incredibly narrow-minded.

[who'syourdaddy?]

I just happened upon this thread tonight and it seems that after perusing through the three pages of posts, that the rules committee, i.e. whitestar, has changed the rules of play regarding turns to fit his interpretation of downloading personnel w/o advancing to the execute orders phase.

Right or wrong, it comes across as more than a little heavy-handed to me.

Just because whitestar is the head of the rules committee, and therefore also their spokesperson, does not mean that he acts alone as an individual, and it's not fair at all to cast him as a single person who is making a choice without consulting others.

We're a community, so we should try acting like one, rather than pointing fingers because things aren't always exactly how each person wants them. Things change, things get clarified, and that's just how it is... but to say that one person is responsible is incredibly narrow-minded.

If you truly believe that "we" are a "community", then you should be willing to tolerate the open expressions of displeasure with this and other decisions, unless you believe that any decision the Rules Committee and whitestar is sacrosanct and should never be questioned or argued against.

Furthermore, the new "ruling" on downloads during the Play a Card phase is not a "clarification". It is a newly written procedure of what was a clearly written rule that permitted downloads during the Play a Card phase. After several well-respected and accomplished players pointed out how whitestar's "interpretation" was not in line with how the rule was written, the rule "changed".

That still seems heavy-handed to me, regardless of what person or committee made the decision. If you think that is narrow-minded, so be it.

Personally, I believe it is narrow-minded to ignore the supporting documentation and well-written justifications of two former 1E World Champions in defense of the formerly written rule.

[JasonRed3]

So this deck against a smart opponent (Ref Obelisk->Masaka away Zek) doesn't work at all now.

Lame.

The Obelisk (specifically) has been a problem, especially since it has a icon. (Tribunal helped it become more problematic)