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By karonofborg13 (Matthew Hayes)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Architect
#246548
Saturday, June 21st
11:00 AM
Paradox Comics & Cards
Fargo, ND, U.S.A.
Second Edition
Format now finalized, will be Standard Constructed. Bring the most innovative, highly creative, and newest design you can!
5 rounds
$5.00 entry
Last edited by karonofborg13 on Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Director of Organized Play
By LORE (Kris Sonsteby)
 - Director of Organized Play
 -  
Architect
1E Andoria Regional Champion 2023
2E Andoria Regional Champion 2023
W.C.T. Chairman's Trophy winner 2014-2015
#246665
Since when is it legal to impliment "house rules" at a Regional? Per the tournament listing: "2014 Fargo, ND Regional, 2E. This event will be Standard Constructed, but Limited card pool, the following two cards are banned: Aid Legendary Civilization; Practice Orbital Maneuvers."

Matt, this is bullshit. You know it and I know it. The fact that OP would even consider allowing this sort of "persona non gratus" request is a black eye to the new administration and an abuse of power at the Ambassador level. End of story.

Over the past six months or so, I’ve been nothing but cordial to you and your players when attending tournaments up there and have let all the constant cheering from you in the peanut gallery for opponents to beat me slide. When you insidiously inserted yourself into MY game against John Western in January, apart from politely but firmly requesting that you leave to let John play HIS game, not yours, I let that one go too. Then when you baited and switched your league playoff events from weekends where Minnesota players could attend, as a handful of us qualified in January, to week nights to ensure none of us could be on hand, I also let that slight roll off my back.

Additionally, I have also remained silent while you have slyly maneuvered pairings to avoid facing me and / or appealed to the T.D. to avoid it, both in Fargo and here in the Twin Cities. But after your rage quit against Nat last month followed by your angst over my use of Aid Legendary Civilization immediately after our match at the same tournament, I can only conclude that you are now taking desperate measures to ensure that no one from the Twin Cities area attends your Regional, especially me or my best bud, Matt Frid. Which, as far as I am concerned, goes against the entire purpose of hosting Regional tournaments.

I can't wait to hear what James thinks of this...
Last edited by LORE on Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Executive Officer
By jadziadax8 (Maggie Geppert)
 - Executive Officer
 -  
2E North American Continental Semi-Finalist 2023
ibbles  Trek Masters Tribbles Champion 2023
2E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#246690
bandana8472 wrote:curious stuff. can you really ban cards at sanctioned tourneys?

hayes... looks like you've got some explaining to do!
According to the Organized Play Guide, he can do exactly this.

Under Sanctioned Formats:
OPG wrote:4.2.2–Limited
May be used for First Edition, Second Edition and Tribbles events. This is the default card pool for most sealed events. It comprises a subset of all cards, as determined by the tournament organizer. A subset may include cards from a particular expansion, cards from a group of expansions, or cards with a particular property (Example: [1E] Voyager property cards).
This doesn't mean it's not shady as all Hell.
User avatar
 
By Maelwys (Chris Lobban)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Community Contributor
#246691
jadziadax8 wrote:
bandana8472 wrote:curious stuff. can you really ban cards at sanctioned tourneys?

hayes... looks like you've got some explaining to do!
According to the Organized Play Guide, he can do exactly this.
As long as you're willing to accept that "only cards from the first three sets", "only cards with the DS9 property logo", and "only cards that the TD likes" are equally valid definitions of a subset of cards.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#246700
Maelwys wrote:
jadziadax8 wrote:
bandana8472 wrote:curious stuff. can you really ban cards at sanctioned tourneys?

hayes... looks like you've got some explaining to do!
According to the Organized Play Guide, he can do exactly this.
As long as you're willing to accept that "only cards from the first three sets", "only cards with the DS9 property logo", and "only cards that the TD likes" are equally valid definitions of a subset of cards.
I almost don't want to wade into this pool, but last time I checked, ban lists were a 1e thing. Theme tournaments are one thing, and I like a good throwback tournament as much as the next guy (and I'm sure Kris and Frid would both agree), and if it's a local 'house rules' type thing then to each their own (assuming sufficient disclosure in the tournament announcement), but as soon as you start talking championship-related events, which start at the Regional level, then I think there needs to be a flag on this play. In that context, I DON'T consider 'cards the TD likes' to be a valid subset. This isn't 1e.

If those two cards are THAT much of a problem, run a set 1-6 throwback tournament for your regional (I assume that's Kosher, otherwise nm). That was a decent era to play in anyway, and it doesn't come off as a targeting of strategies you don't like

:twocents:
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By stoovie (Matthyas Kiraly)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#246723
Hi all,

There is currently a review being conducted on this issue of the Limited format being used to nominate and exclude particular cards.

While Matt's event IS technically valid by the existing OPG entry on Limited card pools, as well as the requirements set out in the 2014 Regionals application, it has been appealed on the grounds that such use of the card pool is an unintended side-effect, and not in the spirit of the game. I will reiterate, Matt's event is technically valid as it stands, and he has done nothing wrong in this regard.

However, any change to the definition of the Limited card pool would be included in the OPG 4.1 release currently scheduled for release early next week (Monday, to be precise), and as it would be effective immediately, would invalidate this event as a Regionals.

In that case, I will work with Matt to find the best alternative event within the system for the 2014 Fargo 2e Regional.

We hope to have a resolution to this matter shortly, so please stand by. Thanks all.

Regards,

Matthyas.
User avatar
Director of Organized Play
By LORE (Kris Sonsteby)
 - Director of Organized Play
 -  
Architect
1E Andoria Regional Champion 2023
2E Andoria Regional Champion 2023
W.C.T. Chairman's Trophy winner 2014-2015
#246734
Thanks to Brian, Chris, and Maggie for the back up on this and to Mathyias for looking in to it.

Given this cold reception, I will very likely pass on attending (as I presume Frid will as well), but at the very least I hope other players, both traveling and local to Fargo, will not be subjected to these self-serving bans.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#246741
While I think I've made my position clear in this situation, I do want to offer a follow-up to Matthyas as the OPG revision is considered:

Despite what I've just said in my previous post above, I'd urge caution when considering whether or not homegrown 'ban lists' should be disallowed. While I can't think of a specific example, I have to allow for the possibility that there exists a scenario tournament that would be great to play but for the existence of a certain card (or cards) creating an NPE. In such a case, I think we should leave it to the TDs to be able to craft their scenario tournaments appropriately. This situation is a specific case of abuse of that principle, but that doesn't eliminate the validity of the principle itself.

However, I would recommend that such custom scenario tournaments be relegated to the level-1 tier for now. I enjoy special scenarios a lot, and maybe an 'approved scenario list' can be created (if it doesn't already exist) for use in level-2 and above play. That way we can maximize flexibility, and fun factor, while minimizing the potential for abuse.

:twocents:

Thoughts?

PS: I apologize if this is already covered in the existing OPG, I didn't have it in front of me when I wrote this post.
 
By karonofborg13 (Matthew Hayes)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Architect
#246805
If I could figure out how to do it, I'd post the pm conversation I had with our new Organized Play Director prior to posting the info that went up. In the gist of the conversation, I asked about the legitimacy of the ban of those two specific cards and he gave me the info regarding Limited Format and the allowance of such.

If somebody can point me to the means/capability/instruction of how to do so, I'll post the two pm's here. Just so any of you wondering about this situation can have your minds eased.

As for Kris, really? I'll be as diplomatic as I can be, but, you're a bully and you've always been a bully. You want to sling mud (or perceived mud?) Go right ahead. I could stoop to your level, as I've got a laundry list of 17 years worth of 'mud' that would make your aired grievances above pale in comparison. However, I'm not going to go that route, no matter how much it may be deserved. The community doesn't need it, nor do I care to lower myself to your level.

I'd say I'm sorry that you feel that you're being persecuted or 'unofficially banned' or what-have-you. (Although, it doesn't surprise me that you took that tack.) At least, I'm not guilty of blatantly banning a player from a Regional, like you and Jerad (and perhaps one other) did two (?) or was it three (?) years ago when you publicly banned John Corbett from the MN and ND Regionals that year. Hmmm, maybe I should send John a pm cordially inviting him to the ND Regionals this year? So, in all honesty, I don't feel sorry. I will not be bullied to conform to your demands. You don't like the format I run at my events, feel absolutely free to avoid them, by all means. If playing your crutch decks at MN, SD, IL, IA, and wherever else aren't enough, oh boo hoo!.

I'll give you the peace of mind that my interest in playing in any MN 2E events from this date forward are now nil. I won't be showing up for the MN 2E Regional nor the Tribbles as I'd prefer not to add to the drama you seem to crave. The MN 1E, well, my interest is playing with players who actually are there to have fun and are fun to play against regardless of the outcome, players like Justin, Kevin, Ben, DVK, Robert, Thang, and James, so I don't want to miss out, but, knowing that you'll be there makes me reconsider any future confrontations and I'll have to take it on a case by case basis. And as I'm sure you're hitting up SD, I'll just excuse myself from that as well. Regarding Continentals in July, I may come for the 1E event, but, that'll be it, as of this point, if even so. As to Worlds in August, that is now in doubt, too, as you're going to be there and I don't care to detract from the fun the other players are looking forward to having, so we shall see.

So, thank you, you've helped me to save some money on trips I won't be taking. I hope you feel you've gotten a moral victory here, for what it's worth.

I'll close on that note.
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By stoovie (Matthyas Kiraly)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#246818
Matt,

We are not, and have not, been swayed by any individual's feelings towards you personally. Indeed, I have never met you. Neither have we been influenced by some of the personal comments that have been made here, which I cannot condone.

As I mentioned in my earlier message, as well as my message to you, is that what you are trying to do is technically allowed at the moment, and by the letter of the existing law, was totally and utterly legal. There was a very good argument put forward subsequently, and after further discussion on this issue, the prevailing feeling on this is that using the Limited format to effectively create a custom ban list, even for two cards, is not only against the spirit of our game (that is, the card pool was intended to specify groups of cards, not exclude specific) and would also set a precedence, and that needed to be nipped in the bud. Hence my (and Dave's) follow-up messages a few hours later on the matter.

Subsequently, we have concluded that the document's failure to address this use of the Limited format is too serious to remain until the next major OPG update after the championship season, and must be addressed immediately, which means that it is highly likely to see inclusion in the OPG update next week.

This is a very unique situation, and as I mentioned earlier, this unfortunately means that your chosen card pool will not be legal for your Regional. Naturally, with the event scheduled for a date over three months from now, we believe you have ample time to redesign your event parameters and advertise the event with plenty of time to spare.

I am happy to address any further concerns via our existing PM conversations, including working with you personally to design the event you want, leaving this thread for you to promote your event.

Regards,

Matthyas.
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By flrazor (Jeremy Benedict)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#246839
karonofborg13 wrote:At least, I'm not guilty of blatantly banning a player from a Regional, like you and Jerad (and perhaps one other) did two (?) or was it three (?) years ago when you publicly banned John Corbett from the MN and ND Regionals that year.
Just to clarify as the person that organized the 2E Regional in MN the year in question that despite any player comments that no one was considered to be "banned" from participating. There was talk among players online about certain people being "unwelcome" which forced me to clarify that position back then and restate it now:

Everyone is welcome at my events and no one is excluded unless your behavior at such an event violates the CC's Code of Conduct to an extent that warrants being asked to leave. No one has yet done so, and I sincerely hope that no one will.
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