[BCSWowbagger]

This is also why I don't think reframing as "valid response to anything" would be helpful -- and, actually I think it'd be misleading. It's true in a sense, but not, I think, the sense in which players would understand it.

And even the example questions are answerable:

1. Yes, you can use the download in response to the battle to damage the ship. And outside of the "gotcha" factor, it does the same as if you'd done that download *before* starting combat.

2. The Doorstop nullification is a red herring since it gets nullified, but Frame of Mind won't prevent the battle because it's already initiated. Sure, you've whacked the Leadership but they already checked - grenade's in the air, so to speak. The 3 Empathy doesn't matter either, since it's a cure not a nullify - they need to take an action to get rid of it.

Yes, they're both funky questions. (And I'd point to Bill as a reason why we need an icon alternative to , because that is a rather naughty trick.) But I didn't have to dig into the glossary to answer them - it's just applying the existing timing rules.

Both your answers are (I believe) wrong, at least in their reasoning.

The first is mainly my fault -- I didn't summarize the original question appropriately. In the original question, Bill Samuels is downloading OTA not just after a hit has been computed, but, more specifically, after Breen Disruptor Burst has selected him to die but before it applies HULL damage. The whole thing comes down to the question of "is a ship damaged when a damage marker has been only partially applied"?

This is not a question that comes up under ordinary circumstances, because, under ordinary circumstances, you cannot directly respond to a damage marker until the damage marker itself has been fully resolved (battle - order of damage results makes this clear). But because DL's work at faster than valid response speed, they can interrupt damage application mid-stream and do weird stuff to it. (I believe the answer is, "No, the OTA download is invalid because the ship is formally damaged as soon as the casualty step on the damage marker is resolved" -- but the Glossary does not make this easy to sort out.)

The second is a good example of how twisty this nonsense is. I'm A Doctor is not a red herring -- it's the crucial element to the answer.

If Bob declared battle on Alice, showing his Leadership, and Alice then DL'd Frame of Mind to hit that Leadership, that would technically happen at the end of Step 1 - Announcement, before Step 2 - Responses. That's how suspend play works. There is no other card in the game that can access the timing window "after announcement but before initiation," but anything that suspends play can.

Because Frame of Mind hits in Step 1, it prevents the Leadership from being used to initiate the battle. The battle is cancelled. But it's not "cancelled" in the sense of most battle-cancelling cards (which are responses) -- no, this battle is prevented from starting at all. No personnel are stopped. Now it becomes crucially important whether Bob has 3 Empathy. If he does, he can take an action to cure the Frame of Mind and initiate a new battle with the same personnel. If he doesn't, he's stuck.

However, instead of all that, Alice tried to prevent the battle with Doctor, Not A Doorstop first. That's a Step 2 response. By the time it hits the table (to be nullified), the battle is "just initiated" and can no longer be undone by getting rid of the Leadership. After Doorstop is nullified, THEN she throws Frame of Mind, but it is too late. (The grenade has been thrown, as you say.)

But that's solely because of Doctor, Not A Doorstep forcing the timing to advance to Step 2. Without that, Alice's Frame of Mind would totally work, because it'd still be in Step 1.

That's weird, not intuitive, and only kinda fits your "valid response to anything" paradigm. (We could MAKE everything fit your paradigm, but that would require a rebuild of the whole action-timing system. That's something I think we both agree would be very good but extremely difficult -- and, if we're going to do it, I'm inclined to simplify DL quite a bit more than that.)

@ENSIGN Q:

I think Jeremy's answer was good. His answers always are.

What might help further is a better understanding of how actions happen within other actions. (The rules call this a "group action.") (You are NOT wrong that this is a rules salad -- but we're also not just making it up. There really is a somewhat sensible underlying logic here.)

For example, here's what a mission attempt might look like. Notice how actions are nested inside other actions. I think this is a piece you might not have right now, but this is how you can get responses to things within dilemma encounters.

(NOTE: I wrote this flowchart in an internal discussion of how Gold! worked, which is why Gold! is referenced so much in this particular chart.)

Mission attempt action
1 Initiation: announce attempt, identify attempting Away Team, prove team meets mission affiliation requirements
2 Responses (if any) (e.g. The Phage)
3 Begin non-responsive sub-actions (seed card encounters)
3.1 Reveal and initiate encounter with Trabe Grenade
3.1.1 Initiate identifying targets for Trabe Grenade (via random selection)
3.1.1.1 Initiate random selection: identify eligible targets for random selection (SECURITY & Leadership)
3.1.1.1.1 Initiate eligible target identification (this must be a separate sub-action, because, if it isn't, when does Elim Garak get to use his skill?)
3.1.1.1.2 Valid responses to start of eligible target identification (e.g. Elim Garak chooses to exclude himself)
3.1.1.1.3 Resolution of eligible target identification: we now know who is eligible for the random selection
3.1.1.2 Valid responses to random selection prior to resolution

This is where you choose whether to use Gold! or not. It can't be earlier, since the card specifically says it doesn't work until your personnel are "eligible" for a random selection, and we don't know anyone is eligible until target ID is complete.

3.1.1.3 If Gold! is not used: Resolution of random selection: cards are shuffled and presented to opponent; opponent picks one* to be the dilemma target

OR

3.1.1.3 If Gold! is used: Random selection becomes opponent's choice, but is still at the resolution stage (card does not suggest eligible targets are rechecked): cards are presented to opponent; opponent examines and picks one* to be the dilemma target

3.1.2 Valid responses to dilemma target identification (e.g. Change of Heart, if selection was in fact random)
3.1.3 Resolve target identification: we now have the target of the dilemma
3.2 Valid responses to encounter of Trabe Grenade (e.g. Adapt: Negate Obstruction)
3.3 Resolve encounter with Trabe Grenade
3.3.1 Initiate resolution of encounter: check whether target has CUNNING > 8 (let's say he doesn't)
3.3.2 Responses to resolution of encounter (e.g. Driven) (let's say there are no responses)
3.3.3 Resolution of resolution of encounter: target dies
3.3.3.1-4 initiation of death, responses before resolution of death (e.g. Sickbay: Menagerie), resolution of death
3.3.4 Responses to resolution of encounter/death (e.g. Klingon Death Yell, mission attempt ends because of dilemma failure)
4 Resolution of mission attempt (failure) & responses (e.g. Agony Booth)

*(if more than one target is necessary, opponent picks however many are needed. These separate picks are arguably different sub-actions -- 3.1.1.3.1, 3.1.1.3.2... 3.1.1.3.n -- but I think they are all part of the same overall random selection and can't be separately responded to... at least, not by any existing card)

[Armus]

I feel the need to point out that Trabe Grenade specifically says "Mission Continues" on it so you wouldn't be stopped.

Otherwise I basically followed that... which is probably a sign that I spend entirely too much time on this nerd hobby...

[AllenGould]

OK, I'm gonna have to do some reading to rebut, but that's a heckuva interesting argument.

(This is mostly a placeholder for "I saw, that's a really interesting argument, and my boss will have my guts for garters if I spend the day doing glossary research so it'll have to wait".)

[Mogor]

Jeez no wonder I hate gold!