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By Mr.Sloan
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E Austrian National Second Runner-Up 2020
#551085
If a dilemma says: opponents choice, one can see all personal not just those then can be targeted.

I was searching for the thread that explains it with glossary reference, but i cannot find it while searching for "opponents" or other keywords. How can i search the all 1e rules threads for references for opponents who are not aware for that rule?

What i can report here for reference for my tournament games is:

glossary - selection
Opponent's choice: When game text or a rule states that a card is selected by opponent's choice, your opponent may examine all of your cards in the group fully (look at each entire card) before making the selection, even if only some of them meet specified criteria. For example, when you encounter Impressive Trophies, your opponent may examine all the cards in your crew or Away Team before choosing a captive meeting either of the listed criteria. See showing your cards, ties.
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Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
 - Online OP Coordinator
 -  
Praetor
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2019
1E British National Champion 2020
1E American National Champion 2020
2E The Neutral Zone Regional Champion 2020
#551089
If you have ideas where you think good cross references in the glossary would work, that would be good here.
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By Mr.Sloan
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E Austrian National Second Runner-Up 2020
#551090
pfti wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:07 am If you have ideas where you think good cross references in the glossary would work, that would be good here.
Not exactly sure what you mean so i ask here:
do you mean cross references withhin the glossary
references from threads here to glossary
references from glossary to threads
a list of F.A.Qs. here in a thread, with multiple links to glossary sections?

i´d suggest the last one. a pinned FAQ, with common questions, answered in one sentence with glossary links for those who doubte it / want to double check it.
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By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#551100
The forums are not an official rulings source, so you don't want to be using them to answer rules questions. Specifically because in a tournament the TD is going to refer to the glossary and if the glossary doesn't have the answer, the TD rules using their best judgment and that is final.

In your example pinning an FAQ isn't going to work because you can't say in a tournament "Takket said I can do this, look at the forum FAQ!"

What ptfi is referring to are cross references within the glossary/rulebook themselves. I believe BCS even had a thread recently asking for what cross-references we would like to see. So if there is a ruling you can't find because you were looking up "ruling X" when really it is under "ruling Y", the glossary can be amendment to say, under ruling X, "See Ruling Y".
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By Mr.Sloan
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E Austrian National Second Runner-Up 2020
#551103
Takket wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:20 pm
What ptfi is referring to are cross references within the glossary/rulebook themselves.
ok thx. i still used threads becaue their
a) glossary is linked
b) rule guys explained it with their unofficial opinion
like in the opponents choice thread that i do not find anymore.

so i try to use them to persuade my opponent, and if not possible the tournament director with those references. its a fast way especially since some things come up over and over again.
Last edited by Mr.Sloan on Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Mr.Sloan
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E Austrian National Second Runner-Up 2020
#551105
In the Rulebook their is "entering play"

and a clearification for showing [HA]

maybe there, a link to the "selection" part of the glossary (see my first post) would be usefull. and add the important sentence "Opponent's choice: When game text or a rule states that a card is selected by opponent's choice, your opponent may examine all of your cards in the group fully (look at each entire card) before making the selection, even if only some of them meet specified criteria." to the clearification box in the rulebook on the side.

+ a link to "showing your cards" in the glossary
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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#551135
You could also search the Rulebook for "opponent's choice" and see that both of the instances are in the section Looking at cards which has the ruling you are looking for. And it is The Rulebook, so no one can really argue.
Last edited by winterflames on Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Mr.Sloan
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E Austrian National Second Runner-Up 2020
#551137
winterflames wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:16 pm You could also search the Rulebook for "opponent's choice" and see that both of the accurances are in the section Looking at cards which has the ruling you are looking for. And it is The Rulebook, so no one can really argue.
ah there it is. thx. i was looking for "showing your cards" as it was named in the glossary.
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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Participant 2021
#551952
So, some further questions and statements about this.

If, e.g., I encounter the Talosians, I hold that -- even if I first have to make the choice of most skilled male or 2 females -- opponent gets to verify whether I did my math correctly on who's a female or a male. And thus, i.e., can ask me to verify that by showing (the genders of) my whole away team.

I have seen, over the past months, that people are far more protective of the content of their mission attemptors, than they should be.

In fact, I believe there are many dilemmas which target something verifiable -- and that means the opponent may verify by seeing part of, but often even the whole team. I gladly make use of that "right", myself, to refresh my memory -- which is bad enough to begin with and furthermore strained to its limits by this game. It is not a question of distrust, in other words. I like verifying, to have a slightly better overview of the game. (And let's face it; we all make mistakes and overlook things, sometimes.)

This also means that Male's Love Interest will give me, as opponent, a right and chance to verify the whole away team's gender.

And in Lackey, that means the whole away team, luckily for me. (Because you can't -- and we don't -- shield parts of the card, during online play.)

This is not distrust, nor should it be frowned upon.

So, why not Reveal All Cards To Opponent on those attempting crew zones a bit more often, everybody? :wink:
And if I ask for it because I'm within my rights, don't make me feel like I'm afraid you're cheating? :P I just want to make use of the mechanic to jog my memory.

This largely isn't a memory game, after all. (Dilemmas that go back under are a different matter in that regard; and how many leaders opponent's armada has, too.)

Relevant sections in the Rulebook and Glossy.

Feel free to tell me where I erred, if I did. Also feel free to agree or corroborate.
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By Mr.Sloan
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E Austrian National Second Runner-Up 2020
#551956
SudenKapala wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:12 pm
This also means that Male's Love Interest will give me, as opponent, a right and chance to verify the whole away team's gender.
No, because its not an opponents choice. You are not allowed to see cards just because you want to verify if opponents does things correctly. In case of doubt a TD once said he would do it, but i am not allowed to doubt in order to get information i am not allowed to see otherwise. If he actually did a mistake the question is: Was it intentional (which gets a warning from the TD) or unintendional (if not correctable the game continues).

Opponents choice is specifed (see glossary link above) so that you can see everyone.

Note: I did not read everything because i think that was your core question. if i did not answer other parts with it please let me know
 
By patrick (Patrick Weijers)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#551958
Mr.Sloan wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:09 pm
SudenKapala wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:12 pm
This also means that Male's Love Interest will give me, as opponent, a right and chance to verify the whole away team's gender.
No, because its not an opponents choice. You are not allowed to see cards just because you want to verify if opponents does things correctly. In case of doubt a TD once said he would do it, but i am not allowed to doubt in order to get information i am not allowed to see otherwise. If he actually did a mistake the question is: Was it intentional (which gets a warning from the TD) or unintendional (if not correctable the game continues).

The rulebook seems to agree with Suden on this one.
In the yellow "Clarification: Necessity and Card Inspection" thing on the side next to LOOKING AT CARDS it says:
Or, if your opponent encounters a dilemma that randomly kills a personnel with Diplomacy, you may ask your opponent to prove that he or has included all the Diplomacy personnel in his or her mission team in the selection.

(There's a typo in there, by the way. Missing a "she" I assume?)
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By Mr.Sloan
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E Austrian National Second Runner-Up 2020
#551959
patrick wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:30 pm
Mr.Sloan wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:09 pm
SudenKapala wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:12 pm
This also means that Male's Love Interest will give me, as opponent, a right and chance to verify the whole away team's gender.
No, because its not an opponents choice. You are not allowed to see cards just because you want to verify if opponents does things correctly. In case of doubt a TD once said he would do it, but i am not allowed to doubt in order to get information i am not allowed to see otherwise. If he actually did a mistake the question is: Was it intentional (which gets a warning from the TD) or unintendional (if not correctable the game continues).

The rulebook seems to agree with Suden on this one.
In the yellow "Clarification: Necessity and Card Inspection" thing on the side next to LOOKING AT CARDS it says:
Or, if your opponent encounters a dilemma that randomly kills a personnel with Diplomacy, you may ask your opponent to prove that he or has included all the Diplomacy personnel in his or her mission team in the selection.

(There's a typo in there, by the way. Missing a "she" I assume?)
hm interesting. prove before making the choice or after it was done? either way seeing the people is always an interesting infromation to have before or after...

@Sudden. Yes that was a very good question, i didn´t know that and want to use it in the future for my dilemmas strategy :)
Last edited by Mr.Sloan on Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Participant 2021
#551963
Mr.Sloan wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:32 pmprove before making the choice or after it was done?
I think that is often a moot question -- doesn't it come down to the same information? (If not, please exlain -- I may miss something.)
Mr.Sloan wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:09 pm
SudenKapala wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:12 pm
This also means that Male's Love Interest will give me, as opponent, a right and chance to verify the whole away team's gender.
No, because its not an opponents choice. You are not allowed to see cards just because you want to verify if opponents does things correctly.
What Patrick said. I do think I am allowed to verify if they do things "correctly" or even "honestly". It's a built-in system against cheating, after all!
But -- as I tried to address -- this is what I feel is a highly common, widespread misconception among the (online?) player base!

One, which I'd like to see addressed (or rectified, if I missed rules changes), because I like to continue -- or rather: start -- "verifying"... not from distrust, but as said, to refresh my memory. (And to double-check, yes. Which I often let opponent do, too.)

And as said -- I can't do the math, but there are many simple dilemmas which let you "verify" something by seeing the whole away team. I'd wager (again: I don't know how to really find out) there are more dilemmas which allow you to, then not allow you to.

I've been feeling bad for too long now, when wanting to ask to be allowed to verify something. :P
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By Mr.Sloan
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E Austrian National Second Runner-Up 2020
#551964
SudenKapala wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:43 pm
Mr.Sloan wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:32 pmprove before making the choice or after it was done?
I think that is often a moot question -- doesn't it come down to the same information? (If not, please exlain -- I may miss something.)
Maybe not. But maybe it does if suspend play actions are involved. let me think...
maybe if i have a ship that [DL] a infiltrator so that i can play Counterintelligence before the dilemma is resolved? Not sure, but i think it should be clearified. because checking after one personal is effected its easier to remember who remained.
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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Participant 2021
#551967
I leave those details up to the rules people (which have been summoned 8) ).

First, personally, I'd like an answer to the general issue -- am I right that I have the right to ask for verification of details (of, say, a randomly selected sub-group; or of the whole team) when those are targeted?

Or, conversely, am I only(?) disallowed from verifying anything, when the whole away team is targeted as a whole -- such as with Skin of Evil?
(That last statement is more bold and probably has more negative answers; there are probably more examples to be found for situations in which I don't get to verify anything, because there is nothing to verify. That last question was more, just to get the conversation flowing.)
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