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By admiral-mogh (Jorn Engstrom)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E World Quarter-Finalist 2023
#474125
Mysterious Orb says ”play at any time”. Does that mean I can use it to remove opponents key personnel just before they solve a mission?
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#474127
admiral-mogh wrote:Mysterious Orb says ”play at any time”. Does that mean I can use it to remove opponents key personnel just before they solve a mission?
No. At Any Time means at any time between other actions on either player's turn. You can remove key personnel before they attempt but once the attempt has started it can only be interrupted by valid responses or actions that suspend play - Mysterious Orb is neither of those things.
 
By Dunnagh (Andreas Micheel)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Contender
#474133
admiral-mogh wrote:Mysterious Orb says ”play at any time”. Does that mean I can use it to remove opponents key personnel just before they solve a mission?
That would be the case if it "suspended play"
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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#474163
AllenGould wrote:It reads better as "Play when you could play an interrupt".
That actually is tangient to my follow-up question -- can you use such an ability / game text during you Normal Card Play phase, and not lose the card play? As in -- is it restricted to the Execute Orders phase, if written on a card in play? (If so restricted, it is not truly analoguous(?)/synonymous to "Play when you could play an interrupt" -- which can go before a normal card play.)
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#474167
SudenKapala wrote:
AllenGould wrote:It reads better as "Play when you could play an interrupt".
That actually is tangient to my follow-up question -- can you use such an ability / game text during you Normal Card Play phase, and not lose the card play? As in -- is it restricted to the Execute Orders phase, if written on a card in play? (If so restricted, it is not truly analoguous(?)/synonymous to "Play when you could play an interrupt" -- which can go before a normal card play.)
Good point - I was thinking in terms of "this isn't a magical extra timing window". I believe the current rule is that you can't use cards in play before Execute Orders, but it's been a few years since I delved into that pool of madness.
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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#474172
AllenGould wrote:
SudenKapala wrote:
AllenGould wrote:It reads better as "Play when you could play an interrupt".
That actually is tangient to my follow-up question -- can you use such an ability / game text during you Normal Card Play phase, and not lose the card play? As in -- is it restricted to the Execute Orders phase, if written on a card in play? (If so restricted, it is not truly analoguous(?)/synonymous to "Play when you could play an interrupt" -- which can go before a normal card play.)
Good point -
I take that as a compliment / high praise! :D
I believe the current rule is that you can't use cards in play before Execute Orders
I certainly believe so, too. :thumbsup: Thus, "At any time" might not mean "When an Interrupt is legal", but instead means slightly less than that (excluding the Normal Card Play phase) if a card on the table says it.

But if the card is in your hand, "At any time" might still mean the same -- depending on the card type that says it? And of its effect's / effects' trigger(s)?

OTOH, I really think that if the card is in your hand, the "At any time" clause will really be self-explanatory, if you keep in mind the above concepts of "only in-between actions" & "on either players' turn".
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#474174
SudenKapala wrote:
AllenGould wrote:It reads better as "Play when you could play an interrupt".
That actually is tangient to my follow-up question -- can you use such an ability / game text during you Normal Card Play phase, and not lose the card play?


Yes.
As in -- is it restricted to the Execute Orders phase, if written on a card in play?
No.

You can only use orders during your Execute Orders phase (so, like, "download a SECURITY personnel" text on Defend Homeworld is an Order and happens with Orders), but "at any time" explicitly overrides that.

"At any time" = any time, either player's turn, as long as it doesn't interrupt another action like a mission attempt.

The confusion this causes, because of its inconsistency with [DL] timing (which CAN interrupt another action like a mission attempt) is a key reason why I think the CC should change [DL] timing. If more timings worked the same, then we would have fewer questions and an easier time teaching the game.
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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#474176
SudenKapala wrote:Smart-sounding stuff
AllenGould wrote:Good point -
I take that as a compliment / high praise! :D
Wowbagger wrote:even smarter-sounding stuff...
Life wrote:High praise rescinded. Muwahahaha. :x
I wrote: :(
:P
1138 anyway, Wowbagger. :wink: :thumbsup:
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#474178
Sorry, wasn't trying to make anyone feel bad! Just tersely stating rules answers so I don't have to deal with this system being down.
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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#474180
BCSWowbagger wrote:Sorry, wasn't trying to make anyone feel bad! Just tersely stating rules answers so I don't have to deal with this system being down.
He, no prob! I was just kidding around. Here, we my country(wo)men don't even call this mine, a sense of humour. 8) :P :wink:

Thx for your clarification, by all accounts.

Rules errors written on forum must be especially quickly addressed, I think, lest they perpetuated themselves if people read only part of a topic...
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 - First Edition Rules Master
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
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#474183
BCSWowbagger wrote:Sorry, wasn't trying to make anyone feel bad! Just tersely stating rules answers so I don't have to deal with this system being down.
And good catch. I had that itchy feeling that I was missing a detail, but I'm supposed to be working so didn't want to go Down The Timing Rabbit Hole.

(And [DL] timing - and timing in general - is bad mostly because we have really fuzzy terminology. I honestly think it wouldn't be super terrible to get cleaned up, so long as we'll willing to sacrifice the odd corner case.)
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#474186
AllenGould wrote:(And [DL] timing - and timing in general - is bad mostly because we have really fuzzy terminology. I honestly think it wouldn't be super terrible to get cleaned up, so long as we'll willing to sacrifice the odd corner case.)
Please elaborate, at whatever length you're willing.

I have an old PM from you that touches a bit on this -- yes, I saved it -- but I still don't think I have your full vision for How Timing Should Be (and what corner cases get hit).
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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#474188
Cleaning up the timing rules: :thumbsup: if it can be made more clear/consistent; but...
Striking Down [DL] ("suspend play") timing In Anger: :thumbsdown: because for me, it's really embedded in the feel of 1e.
:twocents: :borg:
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 - First Edition Rules Master
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#474194
BCSWowbagger wrote:
AllenGould wrote:(And [DL] timing - and timing in general - is bad mostly because we have really fuzzy terminology. I honestly think it wouldn't be super terrible to get cleaned up, so long as we'll willing to sacrifice the odd corner case.)
Please elaborate, at whatever length you're willing.

I have an old PM from you that touches a bit on this -- yes, I saved it -- but I still don't think I have your full vision for How Timing Should Be (and what corner cases get hit).
There's probably a whole Manifesto to be written, but for fuzzy terminology two jump to mind as easy examples:

"At any time", as already discussed, just means "when you could play an interrupt". And even the new rulebook still has the old Premiere wording:
Interrupts can be played at any time between other actions — even during your opponent's turn!
.. except that it's not some mystical "between" - it's just when you could take an action. It's one of the few actions you *can* take on an opponent's turn, but it's still just a regular ol' action.

"suspends play" is the other annoying one, because it's not really "suspending" anything - you don't stop the game and go get sandwiches - but it's just a wildcard of sorts. "suspend play" can be explained as "this is a valid response to anything". Timing-wise, it works exactly the same - the response resolves before the original card does. (Hidden Agendas as well, now that I think on it).
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