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By commdecker (Matthew Zinno)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Arbiter
Community Contributor
#559857
Okay, but answer me this. This facility is a station, and stations have no innate reporting ability. This one's reporting ability comes completely from its gametext, which says that Son'a cards can report "here". But if cloaked cards aren't "here", doesn't that mean that it can't report anything when it's cloaked?

And even if you convince yourself that you can justify reporting personnel within it when it's cloaked, surely you can't report ships to orbit?
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#559861
commdecker wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:02 pm Okay, but answer me this. This facility is a station, and stations have no innate reporting ability. This one's reporting ability comes completely from its gametext, which says that Son'a cards can report "here". But if cloaked cards aren't "here", doesn't that mean that it can't report anything when it's cloaked?

And even if you convince yourself that you can justify reporting personnel within it when it's cloaked, surely you can't report ships to orbit?
I don't think anyone has tried to argue that you *could* report ships to orbit.

The facility text to me would only allow reporting within the confines of the facility itself.

But maybe I'm missing something.... can't my people just walk out of the cloaked facility and be *on the planet*? But if they did, could they walk back in? or does the door close behind them and they then can't find the invisible entrance? :lol:
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By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#559864
wait I just realized something. Does "here" on the son'a observatory mean that I can't actually report son'a ships there? Because they aren't present with the observatory, and "here" for a facility means at the facility itself, not just at the location.

Also yeah it seems you cannot report to a cloaked observatory because rulebook says
Cloaked cards are not considered to be opposing, present, "here" or otherwise located at their current location for requirements or abilities.
Would like a clarification because i literally just made a deck based on walking 2 people with anthro out onto the planet, cloaking the facility so I could "staff" a duck blind, and continuing to report people to the cloaked observatory, which won't work if this rule interpretation is accurate.

BTW does this rule make any sense? What problem would be created if it didn't exist? Keeping in mind there is already a separate rule that says your opponent cannot target your cloaked cards which saves you from things like a warp core breach event.
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#559865
Takket wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 6:19 pm BTW does this rule make any sense? What problem would be created if it didn't exist? Keeping in mind there is already a separate rule that says your opponent cannot target your cloaked cards which saves you from things like a warp core breach event.
The intent was that cloaking is akin to hide and seek - your opponent knows that your cloaked card is somewhere at the location, but doesn't know the position well enough to point at it and say "IKC Bortas, behind the tree!".

The flip side is that your cloaked card can't do anything that would give away it's position, which is represented by the restriction that cloaked cards don't count as "here" for abilities that would normally extend to the location. (We use "here" because "present" is touchy-distance, and it made sense that people on the same ship could still affect each other).
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#559867
commdecker wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:02 pm Okay, but answer me this. This facility is a station, and stations have no innate reporting ability. This one's reporting ability comes completely from its gametext, which says that Son'a cards can report "here". But if cloaked cards aren't "here", doesn't that mean that it can't report anything when it's cloaked?
My (unofficial) :twocents: , to which I welcome rebuttal:

In the cloaking rule, "here" means what "here" generally means: "at this location."

However, on a facility, including Son'a Observatory, "here" just means "present." The facility is not present with the location (according to the cloaking rules) but is still present with cards reporting aboard. Son'a Observatory is using "here" in a different, narrower sense than the cloaking rules are when they say "here." And that allows the reporting text to still work even when the facility is cloaked.
And even if you convince yourself that you can justify reporting personnel within it when it's cloaked, surely you can't report ships to orbit?
Correct. No way this would work.
wait I just realized something. Does "here" on the son'a observatory mean that I can't actually report son'a ships there? Because they aren't present with the observatory, and "here" for a facility means at the facility itself, not just at the location.
Remember a couple weeks ago, when I mentioned that the Rules Committee is trying to figure out a "cluster of closely related issues" that touch on "Staging Ground, Son'a Observatory, Station docking rules, targeting, and presence in space"?

Congratulations, you just found the tendril of this problem that impacts Son'a Observatory. Certain cards seem to assume that planet facilities are present with orbiting ships -- certainly everyone who has ever played Son'a Observatory has assumed that -- but the rules don't actually say so. (They also don't say they aren't, so there's that.)

So hold your horses, we're hoping to sort this piece of it out in the September update. Fingers crossed.
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By Dukat (Andreas Rheinländer)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
1E German National Runner-Up 2024
#559874
Since I am the one who designed that card (it was my Worlds 2010 design-a-card prize):
There was never any doubt that a ship can report in orbit when the station is NOT cloaked. (Unless I misunderstood you ...)


My question was only about cloaking the station for the purpose of hiding it from an attack; and I thought it would be nice to know that I do not need to waste personnel by leaving them in the station just to cloak it.
 
By phaserihardlyknowher (Ben Daeuber)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#559885
Armus wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:20 pm But maybe I'm missing something.... can't my people just walk out of the cloaked facility and be *on the planet*? But if they did, could they walk back in? or does the door close behind them and they then can't find the invisible entrance? :lol:
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