[JeBuS]

Arne Darvin says:

If on K-7, allows you to draw one card every turn that any or opponent's card reports here.

But, where is "here"? We all probably agree that the intent is to say "at this location". That's certainly the way his skill has been (ab)used to date (via Crew Reassignment). But... I think there's a missing word in the glossary entry for "here" to support that. I think, without this missing word (which I'll come to later), his ability limits that draw to only when those cards report aboard K-7. Because, the glossary says:

On a facility, personnel and equipment that play "here" must play inside that facility. (Other cards may play anywhere at that location.)

Now, Arne says he has to be "on K-7" for his skill to work. And K-7 is a facility. So, Arne is "on a facility". Therefore, his ability only triggers when cards report aboard K-7.

Now, what I think the glossary meant to say was:

On a facility card, personnel and equipment that play "here" must play inside that facility. (Other cards may play anywhere at that location.)

This would limit the effect of "here" only if you're using the text of a facility (or a card affecting the facility, I think) to report "here".

[Ensign Q]

i guess "here" means reports to K7, since a ship should also trigger him, but not reassigned crews, since they report to a ship.

[Armus]

how do you abuse him? he triggers only on opponents reports.

i guess "here" means at his location, since a ship should also trigger him

You can play your own Klingons to K7 and get card draws.

[Ensign Q]

how do you abuse him? he triggers only on opponents reports.

i guess "here" means at his location, since a ship should also trigger him

You can play your own Klingons to K7 and get card draws.

right, only opponents FED.

still, shouldnt work with reassignment. either "here" is inside the facility, as jebus correctly quoted or it works for K7 as a reporting location. but not inside ships outside.

[princedetenebres]

I understand, and with all sincerity applaud your pedantry as it encourages tighter wording on future cards, but I think, as you undoubtedly recall from our conversation about it, this interpretation is incorrect.

If the glossary said, 'when aboard a facility, "here" in gametext on personnel and equipment is equivalent to aboard' then sure, that'd be the case.

But the exceptions are listing what to do with 'Here' on particular card types, and I absolutely agree with you that this would be helpful to further reinforce by adding an additional clarifying word, but it is a stretch to incorporate that above restriction from the text as written. The first exception is what you do when you see 'Here' on a site, and the second is what you do when you see it on a facility.

Undoubtedly, it could be clearer, but that interpretation requires a greater leap in inference than to the one I've outlined.

The exception in the glossary is there to clarify the text of every HQ in the game, which all state that you may report here (some for free), to indicate that when doing so you must report that personnel inside the HQ and not on the planet, as these are all (save ) planet facilities, and that it does not confer the ability to report straight to a ship in orbit, say.

It just seems to me that you're applying the wrong section of the glossary entry to the action of reporting in this instance this is the full entry:

An ability that takes place "here" (or "there") can be anywhere at that spaceline or time location (on the planet, aboard a ship in orbit, on a facility), with two exceptions:

On a site card (or a card that plays on a site), "here" means at that specific site only.
On a facility, personnel and equipment that play "here" must play inside that facility. (Other cards may play anywhere at that location.)




It does not say, for example, "While On a facility, personnel and equipment with game text or abilities that relate to cards that play "here" must target only those which play inside that facility. (Other cards may play anywhere at that location.)"

In any case, I agree that an additional word would help reinforce the correct interpretation, but to interpret in the manner you've suggested requires even MORE words be inserted into the reasoning to arrive at that conclusion, and thus a greater leap of inference to arrive at the unintended consequence, let's not jump to the wrong conclusion because of a little bit of sloppy inconsistency in the glossary.

Finally, this would be a reversal of a years long precedent, over a typographical error if anything. I'm certain that I have used Arne's ability in games with former rules masters and multiple members of the rules committee, and former errata team leads, and none of them ever offered me even the slightest raised eyebrow that they considered another alternative interpretation. I grant yours is novel, but I don't think it quite works, it's an interesting suggestion, but I think a weak argument. It is stronger perhaps, with someone like Koval, but nonetheless, even in that case, the incorrect interpretation.

But I am pleased that we agree that the solution at least is to simply add 'card' to the second exception to make it clearer still. Particularly if it could be done before the next set, when I suspect there may be a resurgence of interest in potentially using Mr. Darvin with the new OS klingons I expect we'll find therein.

[Ensign Q]

On a facility, personnel and equipment that play "here" must play inside that facility. (Other cards may play anywhere at that location.)

seems pretty clear to me. not much wiggle room.

as i said, you can report ships for draws outside, but personnel has to report inside.

[princedetenebres]

The exception is, as I said, listing a clarification for what here means on given card types, the first one on Sites, the second one on Facilities. It is not meant to add a restriction to abilities written on personnel for the time when they happen to be aboard facilities.


Besides, if Arne's ability was meant to trigger only when someone reports as you suggest, then he would say either 'aboard' or 'where present,' but he doesn't, he says 'here,' and the exception does not apply to him, he is not a facility, nor does his text provide the mechanism for reporting, so you can draw for any Klingon reported at the time location, even aboard a ship.

[Ensign Q]

here
An ability that takes place "here"
On a facility, personnel and equipment must play inside that facility. (Other cards may play anywhere at that location.)

since arne is On a facility, rules are pretty clear to me, as is the fact that your play is not intended to be abused by crew reass.
If on K-7, allows you to draw one card every turn that any or opponents card reports here.


"where present" and "aboard" would exclude ships. so not an alternative wording.

There is only a glitch in the rules (for you) because you want it to be. But some official might have the last word pls?! @BCSWowbagger

[eberlems]

I think the issue is that K-7 allows a free report at the location and it is a STATION. Sherman's Peak itself allows reporting. You could play Crew Reassignment which would allow personnel to report to your ship. Or even Space-Time Portal can report ship with crew. ...
On a facility, personnel and equipment must play inside that facility. But Arne Darvin is not a facility, he just needs to be in K-7 for his ability.

[princedetenebres]

There is only a glitch in the rules (for you) because you want it to be. But some official might have the last word pls?! @BCSWowbagger

No, I'm sorry, I just disagree. Your interpretation requires a greater stretch than the one I offer (that has been the precedent for decades). It has nothing to do with my personal desire, once again, I must regrettably suggest that you're allowing your personal animus towards me to influence your thinking, and have, once more, needlessly made this personal.


The glossary entry is saying what 'here' means when you find it on cards and then offers a couple exceptions of what 'here' means on specific cards. The interpretation I've given would be best solidified by the adding of a single word (card, as Jebus suggests).

The alternative one requires far more inference, to suggest that the second exception is to add a whole restriction on skills of personnel.


Basically you're suggesting it says this:
"While On a facility, personnel and equipment with game text or abilities that relate to cards that play "here" must target only those which play inside that facility. (Other cards may play anywhere at that location.)"




That's quite a stretch, as I said, the intent and interpretation of this entry has been, since it's inception in TwT, that Arne's ability does work, exactly as I have outlined. Indeed, I've used this in games with people that I would say are as close to rules experts as there can be (rules masters, errata team leaders, and others as steeped in 1E rules minutiae) and I have *never* had one of them even raise an eyebrow at it. Even Jebus himself in raising the question says "We all probably agree that the intent is to say "at this location,"" you seem to be the only one arguing the contrary.

Again, I'm suggesting that this is what it's trying to say:
On a facility card, personnel and equipment that play "here" must play inside that facility. (Other cards may play anywhere at that location.)

The glossary is trying to tell you what to do when you see here in various places, and that only two card types have a specific exception to the rule, it does not, except through a very distorted interpretation impose the restriction you suggest, the reason for this is, as I've said before, the ambiguity written on every HQ that doesn't specifically say that personnel must play inside the facility, which is what necessitates that clarification in the glossary, the entry had nothing to do with Arne, or Koval or Hagath.

There's no need to reach for a complex interpretation when there's a simple, logical one available.

[BCSWowbagger]

With today's revision to the definition of "here," this question is resolved: since Arne Darvin is not "a facility, a site, or a card that plays on a facility or site" (like Process Ore), "here" in his special skill means "anywhere at this location." Reporting a ship to orbit around Sherman's Peak while Darvin is aboard K-7 counts for his special skill.

Thank you for your patience.

[princedetenebres]

So no change then for Arne. Thanks for the confirmation

[Ensign Q]

uhm i dont think reporting a ship was ever in question, but reporting personnel to a ship. does that work now or not?

[JeBuS]

uhm i dont think reporting a ship was ever in question, but reporting personnel to a ship. does that work now or not?

Yes, because 'here' is anywhere at that location.

[BCSWowbagger]

uhm i dont think reporting a ship was ever in question, but reporting personnel to a ship. does that work now or not?

Oh, I thought both were in question.

Yes, it works (for the reasons JeBuS stated).