[Mr.Sloan]

if 2 last game actions are undone would that mean undo the last 2 dilemmas before TCL and return them back under the mission?

[sexecutioner]

As far as I'm aware, attempting a mission is a single action, so the entire attempt would be undone as one action, then what ever you did before the mission (beam, move, play an interrupt etc)

[geraldkw]

I think this card is broken in the modern game in the sense that if you hit it, you or your opponent can simply suspend play with a couple special downloads or other suspend play actions and those will be reversed instead of any of the preceding actions. Suspending play to download the Juggler with Q the Referee will even cause this to be more meaningless since you can't un-shuffle the deck.

Re-reading the card I guess only the player encountering it can completely negate it by simply using two suspend play actions. If you hit it and want it to work your opponent can't do anything about it. I'm not sure if there's any real benefit to hitting it yourself though since the Mission attempt will be the first thing negated, so at most you get one action reversed.

[Mr.Sloan]

if suspend play actions happen during a mission attempt, does´t they become sub-actions of the mission attempt?

[AllenGould]

if suspend play actions happen during a mission attempt, does´t they become sub-actions of the mission attempt?

Nobody knows.

I mean that fairly literally - I don't think Decipher ever bothered to go back and actually figure out exactly what they meant.

It really shoulda been errata'ed years ago, but (a) no-one uses it, so it doesn't really get attention, and (b) at least for this rules person, the card is pretty much Cosmic Horror. (Because if one was to attempt to "fix" this, you also need to solve time travel to do "undo" properly...)

[pfti]

if suspend play actions happen during a mission attempt, does´t they become sub-actions of the mission attempt?

Nobody knows.

I mean that fairly literally - I don't think Decipher ever bothered to go back and actually figure out exactly what they meant.

It really shoulda been errata'ed years ago, but (a) no-one uses it, so it doesn't really get attention, and (b) at least for this rules person, the card is pretty much Cosmic Horror. (Because if one was to attempt to "fix" this, you also need to solve time travel to do "undo" properly...)

Agreed. Actions vs subactions are not really defined. It is one of the messiest parts of the game right now.

[BCSWowbagger]

Just to add to the chronological list of current and former Rules Managers chiming in on this card, here's what I said last fall, before I had the job:

I'm not really sure the rescue deck would work in the modern game, simply because the debate about what counted as the "last two actions" would be lengthy and in many cases nearly impossible to resolve. TCL probably needs errata. It'd be a good way to push a game to time by seeding rules time bombs, though.

I know I am about to regret this but why would there be an issue figuring out the last 2 actions?

In a nutshell: because subactions of group actions are also actions.

Suppose your turn consists of this sequence:

***

You report one personnel for free aboard your docked ship.

You use your normal card play to play a Spacedock on your outpost.

Your Spacedock repairs your ship.

You undock your ship.

You move ship (with crew) to mission.

You attempt mission.

You reveal Disgraceful Assault.

Opponent hits you with a tactic that causes one death.

You randomly select one personnel to die.

You use Environmental Suit to save the guy.

You overcome the dilemma and place it out of play.

You reveal and encounter Pinned Down.

You randomly select two personnel.

You use Alien Gambling Device to cancel the selection.

You randomly select two personnel again to be stopped.

They are stopped.

There's a -icon card in play, so you randomly select another personnel to be stopped.

He is stopped.

You pass the dilemma and place it out of play.

You reveal and encounter Temporal Causality Loop, but you fail its requirements.

***

You now must undo the last two actions of your turn. Which of the above events are actions?

Answer: most of them, but I do not believe there is any consensus on which.

Failing Temporal Causality Loop could cause you to roll back to the last random selection on Pinned Down, it could cause you to roll back to your card play of Spacedock, or it could cause you to roll back to pretty much anywhere in between. It all depends on how you, your opponent, and your T.D. decide to interpret 1E's somewhat ill-defined actions. It's a nightmare.

Charlie asked me in April whether there were any cards we should add to the Watch List for rules reasons. I said (paraphrase), "Temporal Causality Loop and [REDACTED] should be watched. But please don't put them on the public Watch List, because that would just advertise the holes in the rules around these cards."

Then I promised we'd work on them, hopefully before anyone noticed.

[9of24]

if suspend play actions happen during a mission attempt, does´t they become sub-actions of the mission attempt?

Nobody knows.

I mean that fairly literally - I don't think Decipher ever bothered to go back and actually figure out exactly what they meant.

It really shoulda been errata'ed years ago, but (a) no-one uses it, so it doesn't really get attention, and (b) at least for this rules person, the card is pretty much Cosmic Horror. (Because if one was to attempt to "fix" this, you also need to solve time travel to do "undo" properly...)

Agreed. Actions vs subactions are not really defined. It is one of the messiest parts of the game right now.

An action may cause other actions to occur within itself. For example, a personnel battle includes sub-actions of creating a combat pile, individual personal combat engagements, determining the winner of the battle, and discarding killed cards. An action in place of your normal card play, in place of a card draw, etc. may also consist of several sub-actions (such as playing multiple cards under Red Alert!). This is called a group action, and until it has finished, neither player may initiate any other actions except actions that suspend play, or responses to the group action or a sub-action. Valid responses may be made to each sub-action of a group action. For example, when a ship is reporting with crew, a player may choose to play an Energy Vortex on the ship, or on a specific personnel being reported. Likewise, you may play Android Headlock or use Hypospray's text in response to a specific combat pairing.

This entry seems to describe group actions in a fairly straightforward fashion. A group action is one that causes other actions (sub-actions) to occur while it is having its results. No actions can be played between sub-actions unless they suspend play, like a special download, or are a valid response to a sub-actions.

And no, an action which suspends play that occurs during a group action is not a sub-action of that group action, unless it was caused by the group action.

[AllenGould]

This entry seems to describe group actions in a fairly straightforward fashion. A group action is one that causes other actions (sub-actions) to occur while it is having its results. No actions can be played between sub-actions unless they suspend play, like a special download, or are a valid response to a sub-actions.

And no, an action which suspends play that occurs during a group action is not a sub-action of that group action, unless it was caused by the group action.

I usually don't bother with these warnings now that I'm retired, but because we're about to go marching into the weeds...

This is my personal opinion as to how action timing works, not necessarily the official rules right now!

To my mind, sub-actions and group actions are just actions. They have to be, because you can respond to them, and we only do timing for actions. (Classic example is Kivas Fajo - Collector, where you can respond to playing the card with Kevin, or to each individual card draw action with things that replace a card draw.)

This keeps things (relatively) sane from a timing perspective, but as a weird Premiere card I don't think Decipher put any real thought into exactly how to count "action" here. (Or how to "undo" things, for that matter.) And I've never come up with a definition that I like *and* isn't fairly easily abused by special downloads and the like. (And also the whole "undo" thing, because cronk that mess.)

[geraldkw]

This entry seems to describe group actions in a fairly straightforward fashion. A group action is one that causes other actions (sub-actions) to occur while it is having its results. No actions can be played between sub-actions unless they suspend play, like a special download, or are a valid response to a sub-actions.

And no, an action which suspends play that occurs during a group action is not a sub-action of that group action, unless it was caused by the group action.

I usually don't bother with these warnings now that I'm retired, but because we're about to go marching into the weeds...

This is my personal opinion as to how action timing works, not necessarily the official rules right now!

To my mind, sub-actions and group actions are just actions. They have to be, because you can respond to them, and we only do timing for actions. (Classic example is Kivas Fajo - Collector, where you can respond to playing the card with Kevin, or to each individual card draw action with things that replace a card draw.)

This keeps things (relatively) sane from a timing perspective, but as a weird Premiere card I don't think Decipher put any real thought into exactly how to count "action" here. (Or how to "undo" things, for that matter.) And I've never come up with a definition that I like *and* isn't fairly easily abused by special downloads and the like. (And also the whole "undo" thing, because cronk that mess.)

I can undo my Jaglom Shrek - information broker, just need to erase my memories.

[geraldkw]

I think just errata Temporal Causality Loop effect:

Relocate ship to where it was at start of turn (or where it was reported this turn). Crew remain on ship and are stopped.

It even works fine with Trek Sense, since if the ship does exactly what it did last turn it will end up in the same place, but if something changes it might pass the dilemma, or do something else entirely.

[JeBuS]

Even in Premiere, what was the point of this dilemma? I don't know that I ever saw it played back then. I mean, immediately ending a turn would be nice, I guess. But it's not as though it skips their draw or anything. Was it just for stopping any further attempts that turn?

[AllenGould]

Even in Premiere, what was the point of this dilemma? I don't know that I ever saw it played back then. I mean, immediately ending a turn would be nice, I guess. But it's not as though it skips their draw or anything. Was it just for stopping any further attempts that turn?

Well, it ends the turn (which is pretty good for a dilemma, and I wonder why we haven't used that more?), and I *think* the idea was that the dilemma goes back under, you'd also move away or undo something else? (That "discard dilemma" is harshing my mellow, since it implies this is a one-shot, but then if you fail you undo so it... wouldn't?)

But honestly, I suspect this is a top-down "ooh, let's do that one episode" card, from Ye Olde Days where you just slapped text down and left it to the players to figure out.

Do any of my fellow olds happen to recall this card ever seeing play at a big Decipher event? Kinda curious if they handwaved it away as well.

[BCSWowbagger]

What does the Brady Strategy Guide say about this card?

I own that book but can't find my copy.

[9of24]

This keeps things (relatively) sane from a timing perspective, but as a weird Premiere card I don't think Decipher put any real thought into exactly how to count "action" here. (Or how to "undo" things, for that matter.) And I've never come up with a definition that I like *and* isn't fairly easily abused by special downloads and the like. (And also the whole "undo" thing, because cronk that mess.)

I had to dig out my Official Player's Guide in hopes that Loop would have been one of the top 50 cards, alas it was not. And a search of a digitized version of the original rulebook for the word action comes up with zero results. The things you can do are playing a card from hand and executing orders (docking/undocking, staffing ships, moving ships, beaming, attempting missions and battling). I suspect at release the intent of Loop was to undo the your two actions prior to the mission attempt, since dilemma encounters don't really seem to be considered an action at that time and if it undid the mission attempt, that would mean undoing itself as well. That all said, it doesn't solve the issue of how it works now. The problematic wording is reason this is so hard to answer. There are a few questions to answer to determine what "your last two actions" actually are.

The first question I have is what makes an action yours. I think it is pretty reasonable to say that if I move my ship, play a card or attempt a mission those are all my actions, but is encountering a dilemma my action? This is one aspect of group actions I will agree is unclear, are sub-actions of your actions also your actions?

---
Lets start by assuming that sub-actions of your actions are also your actions, I'll look at the other case below. That brings us to the second question. Am I only looking at actions which have resolved (either they were nullified or had their results)? Again I'm going to assume yes it means only actions which have resolved. If it checked for actions which were initiated but hadn't resolved, it would include encountering itself, which seems odd since it would only undo 1 other thing. The last question is which action was the last applicable action, is it the most recent action to finish resolving or is it the most recently initiated action which has resolved? Let's go to James' example situation to see what I'm talking about.

In that example, prior to TCL, my crew encountered Pinned Down.

If we assume the last action is the one which most recently resolved, Pinned Down's encounter would be my last action. So we undo all of the results of Pinned Down, which includes all of its sub-actions. This introduces a new question. If an action was undone as part of undoing another action is it still an action that can be targeted as the second action to be undone? If so, the extra personnel stop would be the second action to be undone, which it already had been. If not, the second action to be undone would be encountering Disgraceful Assualt which would be undone in the same manner as Pinned Down.

If we assume the last action is the most recently initiated action which has also resolved, then extra personnel stop would be my last action. That personnel would be unstopped. The second action to be undone would be the random selection which was used to target the personnel which was just unstopped. Quite exciting stuff.
---

Let's now assume, that sub-actions of your actions aren't your actions. I'll still keep the assumption that only actions which have resolved are valid actions to undo. Going back to James' example.

Since sub-actions are no longer mine, my last action which has resolved was moving my ship to the mission. And the second action to be undone would be undocking the ship. Note: In this example the two actions undone would be the same regardless of if we were selecting via last to resolve or most recently initiated that resolved. A suspends play action could make that distinction matter.
---

While the action process isn't perfect, we can figure out how this card works in it. It is mainly a matter of translating Premiere game text into something a bit more modern.