[SirDan]

I have Assign Mission Specialists and The Art of Diplomacy on the table.

Parem and four copies of Tagus solve Impose Order. How many points do I score?

Would the answer change if it were six copies of Tagus?

At some point in 1E's past I would have said 50 and 45, but I don't know.

[princedetenebres]

I'd like to solve the puzzle, please.

At any point in 1E's past the answer would be the same:
0

With the cards you've shown to solve the mission I would point out that you lack the Diplomacy to meet the mission requirements.


(Art of Diplomacy requires a hand weapon present to activate, and doesn't work with Romulans anyway as you said nothing about having Proconsul Neral in play, so I assumed you did not). No points for you!

[princedetenebres]

I suppose I should actually answer the question you wanted answered instead of just having some fun.

Assuming, in addition the above description you also have a hand weapon in the away team and Proconsul Neral somewhere on table (and not a captive, in stasis etc etc).

I believe the answer presently is 45, as Tagus can only get one 5-point bonus from AMS.

So sayeth holy writ the glossary:


If a card is cumulative, multiple copies of the card can have the same effect on the same target(s) at the same time. Damage markers (Tactic cards) are cumulative, as are cards specifically marked "cumulative." All other cards are not cumulative.
...
Examples of effects include modifying skills, attributes, or mission or dilemma requirements

For example, the mission Reported Activity requires Navigation + Honor x2. It is solved by the following Away Team: mission specialists B'iJik (Navigation), Konmel (Navigation), Kahless (Honor x2), and two copies of Batrell (Honor), plus non-mission specialist Governor Worf (Honor x2 plus other skills). A maximum of 15 extra points may be scored (5 by Kahless, 5 by one copy of Batrell, and 5 by either B'iJik or Konmel, but not both). Kahless is not forced to meet the entire Honor x2 by himself, nor is Governor Worf required to use his Honor at all.

[Armus]

So if we change the parameters to Tagus, Parem, and Selok does it get it 50?

That feels wrong to me.

My initial gut answer was 40 - 35 for the mission + 5 for the Treachery mission specialist meeting the Treachery requirement. My reasoning for that is that that's the only requirement that is being met by a mission specialist. Here are the relevant quotes from the cards:

Also, while in play, each of your mission specialists scores 5 points whenever they use their skill to meet a mission requirement.

...personnel who are using a hand weapon may use 2 Treachery as if it were 1 Diplomacy

Art of Diplomacy says your personnel may use 2 Treachery as if it were 1 Diplomacy. I suppose if you had a Treachery x2 mission specialist, the wording on AoD would allow that mission specialist to score 5 points, but I'd also argue in this case that since it takes two of them to meet the mission requirement, neither of them are "using their skill to meet a mission requirement" - rather, they're combining their skills to meet a mission requirement.

Now having just typed and reread that, I realize it might be a pretty weak beer argument. Let's re-frame the question.

If 2 Treachery = 1 Diplomacy, then 1 Treachery = Diplomacy x1/2 (Toral and Ja'Rod, call your office!)

So the question becomes, if you have two mission specialists each with Diplomacy x1/2 meeting a Diplomacy requirement, are they "using their skill to meet a mission requirement"? My personal view is no, since neither mission specialist can meet the requirement (the requirement is Diplomacy, not Diplomacy x1/2, which is what their skill is).

That said, this is a pretty fine distinction and I'd recommend throwing it to the Rules Committee for clarification.

[JeBuS]

@Armus I'm not sure that bit of reasoning flies. A single skill entry as a mission req need not be met by a single personnel.

What's the difference between a mission req of Treachery x2 with skills of Treachery x1 + Treachery x1 versus a mission req of Diplomacy x1 with skills of Diplomacy x½ + Diplomacy x½?

In both instances, multiple personnel are used to meet the requirement. In both instances, multiple personnel use their skills to do so.



On a side note:
I hate that "personnel" is both a singular and plural word. I always assumed Art of Diplomacy meant that one (1) personnel with Treachery x2 could use it as if it were Diplomacy x1. I never once considered the idea that multiple personnel could combine to get Treachery x2.

[Armus]

I get that. The case question here is does a mission specialist meeting half a requirement still trigger AMS?

[Professor Scott]

I get that. The case question here is does a mission specialist meeting half a requirement still trigger AMS?

Mathematically, 2 and 2x1 are equal; we do not need/use the x1 as it provides no change in value, it simply lengthens the equation.

That said, Diplomacy and Diplomacy x1 are also mathematically equal. Again the x1 adds no real value and takes up precious space on a card.

The answer to your question is yes, each of the Treachery mission specialist (Tagus) is contributing his skill (Treachery) towards the Diplomacy x1 requirement thanks to The Art of Diplomacy. They both score +5. Whether you use Parem, Selok, or another Tagus for the Treachery requirement shouldn't matter, as that is another +5.

So assuming you have the hand weapon present and Proconsul Neral in play as has already been said, you should solve Impose Order for 50 points (35+15)

[JeBuS]

I get that. The case question here is does a mission specialist meeting half a requirement still trigger AMS?

Do they "use their skill to meet a mission requirement"? Via AoD, they "use 2 Treachery as if it were 1 Diplomacy". Seems fairly straightforward that yes, they do.

[9of24]

I get that. The case question here is does a mission specialist meeting half a requirement still trigger AMS?

Glossary seems to say yes:

Some cards allow your personnel to "use" a skill like this in place of another skill that they already have. The levels of the original skill may come from any combination of personnel, who are treated as having a fraction of that skill proportional to their contribution. For example, The Art of Diplomacy allows your personnel to use 2 Treachery as if it were 1 Diplomacy. With this card, two personnel who have Treachery can provide 1 Diplomacy (each replaces their Treachery with Diplomacy x1/2), while another personnel who has Treachery x2 can provide another Diplomacy (Treachery x2 is replaced with Diplomacy x1). See skills - skill multipliers. On a mission specialist, this counts as "using" a specialist skill for Assign Mission Specialists. A personnel may not use their skill as the new skill and the replaced skill simultaneously.

The other question of can you score AMS points using muliple copies of Tagus intrigues me more. When the 'Frool rule' was rescinded, I thought that multiple copies of the same mission specialists could now score you points when using their skills to meet mission requirements. Looking at my older glossary this example was removed from the cumulative entry:

Personnel: Multiple copies of the same personnel (whether universal or
unique) may not score points for Colony, Ressikan Flute, or Assign Mission Specialists, or extra points for missions such as Establish Settlement or A Good Day to Live, at the same time. (But they may be used to meet mission or dilemma requirements.)

And doing some digging I found the article with that rules update which says:

In an effort to make the rules more simple we have deleted the "frool rule." Copies of the same universal personal may now contribute to Duck Blinds, mission specialist points, Colonies, etc. After reviewing all of the potential issues, the rules team believes that this will simplify the game with minimal impact to gameplay.

So it sounds like the intent of the rules change was to have them count. I presume the example princedetenebres quoted from the ASM entry should have been removed when that change went into effect but was not.

[eberlems]

If "replaces their Treachery with Diplomacy x1/2" would be the case, is that still a regular skill for AMS?

[pfti]

If "replaces their Treachery with Diplomacy x1/2" would be the case, is that still a regular skill for AMS?

numerically modified skills are still regular skills. and they are using them

[SirDan]

Weapon. Yeah, forgot that. Thanks.

So two copies of the same mission specialist cannot both score points by adding skills together. But can one of them score 5 points by using Diplomacy x½, and also score 5 points by using Treachery x1? Same rule, different application?

[Professor Scott]

Weapon. Yeah, forgot that. Thanks.

So two copies of the same mission specialist cannot both score points by adding skills together. But can one of them score 5 points by using Diplomacy x½, and also score 5 points by using Treachery x1? Same rule, different application?

Whoa, whoa!

So two copies of the same mission specialist cannot both score points by adding skills together. - Says who? The article that @9of24 mentioned says "In an effort to make the rules more simple we have deleted the "frool rule." Copies of the same universal personal may now contribute to Duck Blinds, mission specialist points, Colonies, etc"

I take that to mean, yes Tagus1 and Tagus2 can each use their Treachery towards the Diplomacy and thus each gain +5.

But can one of them score 5 points by using Diplomacy x½, and also score 5 points by using Treachery x1? Same rule, different application? - No, they can use their Treachery as either Treachery or Diplomacy, not both. If they are already using is as Diplomacy it is no longer available to be used as Treachery. Now if you have Tagus3, then you are able to get +15 total.

[Takket]

Wow so 10 treachery MSs can solve Wormhole Negotiations for 95 points? With AoD and hand weapon etc etc

[Enabran]

er.... NO!

The Mission Requirements are Diplomacy x5 OR Honor x4 OR Treachery x4

"OR" not "and"
The best result would be 70 points

If you want an over 100 poins mission try it with Investigate Anti-Time Eruption