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By Dukat (Andreas Rheinländer)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
1E German National Runner-Up 2024
#538104
When I start a mission attempt with two people and download a third personnel with Prepare Landing Party, does Villagers With Torches still apply and kill them?

Timing seems import and I am not sure regading the different timing moments on both cards ...
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#538108
Dukat wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:57 pm When I start a mission attempt with two people and download a third personnel with Prepare Landing Party, does Villagers With Torches still apply and kill them?

Timing seems import and I am not sure regading the different timing moments on both cards ...
I would say yes, your 2 man crew is dead. The start is a section of the attempt just like the end is, both of which must naturally occur after the attempt has begun. Considering you must first declare you are attempting the mission, that is the beginning of the attempt and Villagers would trigger and kill your 2 person away team. On the plus side, your DL would still trigger and it would be safe from the Villagers as you would already be past the beginning of the attempt at that time.
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By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#538127
Professor Scott is correct, they die. Villagers is a valid response to beginning the attempt with two people

Although I'm not sure the download would still happen. Depending on when Villagers triggers......... this could play out one of two ways.

1. You announce attempt. I flip (or suspend play with QtR to DL) Villagers. Your two people die. At this point it is your turn to take an action again and since your away team is now 0, the attempt should be over and i don't think you can take an action of DL the personnel with Landing Party if there is no attempt happening. Is this correct?

2. You announce attempt. I decline to take make a valid response (which may seem stupid if i know i can kill you with Villagers, but let's suppose i have a dilemma there i know will kill you because you have no SECURITY so I decide not to waste my QtR to DL VIllagers.) You then make a valid response to the start of the attempt and use landing party to DL a SECURITY.

Oh crap... now I realize you can pass my dilemma. Can I still DL Villagers and kill the first two personnel now? I think yes because we are still making valid responses to the start of the mission attempt. Even though I declined that the first chance I had, since you made a valid response to the beginning of the attempt, I can still make a valid response too, correct (since we have not moved on to facing dilemma yet)?

I could see that mattering because depending on what my dilemma is, I'd much rather kill three people than two if I have the chance.

And what happens if you do the download for the third person, then i kill the first two, but the third person cannot attempt the mission? (Let's say it is a [NA] person at a [Fed] only mission). The attempt would immediately end and the [NA] person never faces a dilemma, correct?
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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#538132
In your #2 example, The third person download has already joined the away team, and I think they can't be killed by torches now.

I could be wrong.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#539817
The Rules Committee discussed this, so this is more than just my opinion. (But it's also not blue text, so it's not official. We will probably make it official if and when we start hearing reports of this question actually arising in games.)

Takket is mostly correct, although there are slight differences based on whether Villagers is face-up or face-down (or not yet downloaded) at the time the attempt starts, and (as he noted) based on whether you have other responses to the start of the attempt that you try to run first.

Bottom line: Villagers will generally kill the Away Team, the download, and the attempt.

There MAY BE weird cases where a player can screw up, own himself, and miss his chance to Villagers-wipe a team. (Plus, you can avoid these weird cases simply by not getting cute. When opponent attempts a mission with fewer than three personnel, just Villagers it immediately and don't try to do other stuff first. This will always work.)

***

IF VILLAGERS IS FACE-DOWN (OR NOT YET ON THE TABLE):

You initiate the attempt by announcing it.

I get first response. I have Villagers, and should choose to use it immediately to avoid timing weirdness and self-ownage.

I flip Villagers (suspending play with Q the Referee to download it if necessary).

As a [HA], the effect of Villagers is retroactive to the start of the action to which it is responding. All personnel are killed, and the mission attempt is not just cancelled, but fully undone.

Attempt is over before Prepare Landing Parties triggers.

***

IF VILLAGERS IS ALREADY FACE-UP:

You initiate the attempt by announcing it.

I get first response. Villagers is a required response, and I should choose to resolve it first in order to avoid timing weirdness and self-ownage. (Also, under current required response rules, you are required to resolve it first.)

Villagers kills everyone in the Away Team. The mission attempt is not cancelled at this point (because this use of Villagers is not retroactive), so responses actually continue.

You get second response. You can now invoke Prepare Landing Party... but it will fail, because PLP requires you to target the "Away Team" that is participating in this mission attempt, and your Away Team no longer exists. PLP will fail for lack of target. So don't use it!

***

VILLAGERS IS FACE-UP BUT I TRY AND GET CUTE:

Same thing happens. I'm required to do the Villagers response (and required to do it first), so I can't get cute in an elaborate attempt to get more people killed by a dilemma (as in Takket's scenario), and I can't do anything else, either.

***

VILLAGERS IS FACE-DOWN BUT I TRY AND GET CUTE:

This one's fun, and we'd really rather everyone avoided it. It looks like this is what happens:

You initiate the attempt by announcing it.

I get first response. I have Villagers, and should choose to use it immediately to avoid timing weirdness and self-ownage. But I don't! I have some devious plan like the one Takket had in mind.

You get second response and trigger Prepare Landing Parties, downloading a new personnel to the Away Team.

I get third response. NOW I decide to flip Villagers (suspending play with Q the Referee to download it if necessary).

As a [HA], the effect of Villagers is retroactive to the start of the action to which it is responding. The original two personnel are killed, and the mission attempt is not just cancelled, but fully undone. That means the Prepare Landing Party download is also undone. The downloaded personnel returns to the download source, which is shuffled.

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Awesome. Thanks everyone for all the help!