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By Mr.Sloan
 - Delta Quadrant
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#546760
BCSWowbagger wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:33 pm
JeBuS wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:20 pm Also, the Computer Crash scenario is a bit different, since Hidden Agendas are... a timing nightmare.
100%.

An interesting side question: is there any reason why Hidden Agendas have that stupid weird timing, except to protect the victims of Computer Crash from losing their downloads?
yeah step 0 timing is just for computer crash. making it a valid response and stating on computer crash that downloads are not used and may be used later would be one errata that could get rid of any additional hidden agenda rules
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#546772
JeBuS wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:20 pm Also, the Computer Crash scenario is a bit different, since Hidden Agendas are... a timing nightmare.
True, but the rule is generic to download - if you play a card to download something and fail to find, the action is invalid.

I couldn't find a general rule, but everywhere that talks about an action says "you have to do the whole thing or nothing", and I couldn't find a section that says "you can choose to do less than the whole thing" (and as mentioned, we don't have a "do as much as you can").

I'm actually impressed it's taken this many years for it to come up.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#546776
AllenGould wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:09 pm
JeBuS wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:20 pm Also, the Computer Crash scenario is a bit different, since Hidden Agendas are... a timing nightmare.
True, but the rule is generic to download - if you play a card to download something and fail to find, the action is invalid.

I couldn't find a general rule, but everywhere that talks about an action says "you have to do the whole thing or nothing", and I couldn't find a section that says "you can choose to do less than the whole thing" (and as mentioned, we don't have a "do as much as you can").

I'm actually impressed it's taken this many years for it to come up.
"actions - step 3: results" would seem to indicate that targets can be adjusted before the results step. The glossary only indicates that hidden agendas are retroactive and cause invalidation of conditions for an action. Further, the glossary says "If a condition for an action becomes invalid before the action resolves, for any reason other than the activation of a hidden agenda ... it has no effect on the initiation. If a target of an action becomes invalid after the action is initiated, then the action is "played out" without results."

If you put those things together, it means: the rules allow for conditions to change before the results step, and only hidden agendas cause invalidation of the entire action chain. If anything else causes the targets to invalidate (such as replacing them entirely), then those actions play out, but you don't initiate the result that would be forced on the target.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#546778
So, we have this scenario:
Initiation:
Declare Guest Quarters replacement of a card draw action.
Pay cost by forfeiting the card draw.
Response - None.
Result:
Add two card draw sub-actions to the action queue / stack, plus a "place beneath draw deck" action.
Initiate first new card draw action.
Response:
Declare Tribunal of Q replacement of a card draw action.
Pay cost by forfeiting the card draw.
Response - None.
Result:
Download a referee card.
Initiate second new card draw action.
Response:
Declare Tribunal of Q replacement of card draw action.
Pay cost by forfeiting the card draw.
Response - None.
Result:
Download Q the Referee.
Initiate "place beneath draw deck" action.
Target: invalid.
Action "plays out" without "Result: place beneath draw deck".
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
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#546806
thats how it should work if 1e had a proper stack
can i have a final rules confirmation on it please?!

besides if actions that u cant fully execute were blocked you couldnt kill dabogirls in quarks bar if your hand was empty.
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#560782
Adding on to this older topic, I was looking thru cards and The Power has very similar wording (draw 2, discard 1) but explicitly says cannot be converted to downloads, so that would imply to me that GQ can
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By geraldkw
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#567628
boromirofborg wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 3:11 pm Adding on to this older topic, I was looking thru cards and The Power has very similar wording (draw 2, discard 1) but explicitly says cannot be converted to downloads, so that would imply to me that GQ can
I have been caught by similar wording but it turns out it was just redundant reminder text and all similar effects worked the same way, not the opposite, so be careful with this logic.
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By stressedoutatumc (stressedoutatumc)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#567855
JeBuS wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:08 am
AllenGould wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:07 am
JeBuS wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:04 am The argument I have is that I replace 1 card draw, and now I have 2 new card draws. I can replace both of those. Point me to a rule that says otherwise.
How do you resolve the rest of Guest Quarter's text, then?
That's a problem I had with some other scenario. What happens if that back end can't be performed any longer?

I never got an answer.

In this instance, I think there is an argument to be made that one of the downloaded cards should be placed beneath the draw deck. Since the download is "in place of" the draw, it could logically be presumed that any effects that should happen to the draw will happen to its replacement. As an example, there are personnel who put themselves "in place of" some other personnel for effects to happen to them instead.
Conceptually, you haven't "drawn" the card yet. You've selected two, one of which can be drawn, but the "draw" doesn't happen until you've put one under. Then the card is "drawn". That's how I'd look at it. Then, you can replace the card draw with a download or whatever. I think trying to convert both to downloads would be akin to interrupting the action of drawing a card (glossary says drawing a card is an action after all), so the OP's scenario is moot?
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#567858
stressedoutatumc wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 5:23 pm Conceptually, you haven't "drawn" the card yet. You've selected two, one of which can be drawn, but the "draw" doesn't happen until you've put one under. Then the card is "drawn". That's how I'd look at it. Then, you can replace the card draw with a download or whatever. I think trying to convert both to downloads would be akin to interrupting the action of drawing a card (glossary says drawing a card is an action after all), so the OP's scenario is moot?
I can see what you're trying to do, but the rules say "Each card draw is a separate action." So by creating two card draws, it's actually creating two actions, which gotta complete on their own.
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#567862
JeBuS wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 5:40 pm I can see what you're trying to do, but the rules say "Each card draw is a separate action." So by creating two card draws, it's actually creating two actions, which gotta complete on their own.
Which opens up another fun loophole - if they're Real Actual Card Draws, then how do you confirm that the card they put under the draw deck is one of the two they drew?
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By stressedoutatumc (stressedoutatumc)
 - Beta Quadrant
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#567869
JeBuS wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 5:40 pm
stressedoutatumc wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 5:23 pm Conceptually, you haven't "drawn" the card yet. You've selected two, one of which can be drawn, but the "draw" doesn't happen until you've put one under. Then the card is "drawn". That's how I'd look at it. Then, you can replace the card draw with a download or whatever. I think trying to convert both to downloads would be akin to interrupting the action of drawing a card (glossary says drawing a card is an action after all), so the OP's scenario is moot?
I can see what you're trying to do, but the rules say "Each card draw is a separate action." So by creating two card draws, it's actually creating two actions, which gotta complete on their own.
Not exactly. I would say the card is "drawn" when the one you selected would then 'move to your hand" so to speak. So, in my mind, it would go like this:

1. I get to draw a card.
2. I am using the VIP to pick 2 cards that I COULD draw. (havent drawn any yet)
3. I select which of the 2 I would like to draw, the other goes under the deck (havent drawn any yet).
4. I will now "draw" my card. I can choose to do 2 things to complete the action.
a. put that card in my hand
b. convert that one card into a download
5. I select which I will do.
6. Do it. I have now completed the "action" of my draw of my 1 card.
7. Repeat for other things that allow me to draw more.

So, what I am rejecting is calling pulling two cards off the top of my deck "drawing" in the traditional sense. VIP modifies my traditional "draw" so I haven't until that card is chosen and then I further choose what to do with that card (hand or convert).

When the OP says he/she wants to "draw 2 then convert both" I think it's a misinterpretation of the word "draw" as something too simple (take cards off the top of my deck".
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#567871
stressedoutatumc wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:13 pm Not exactly. I would say the card is "drawn" when the one you selected would then 'move to your hand" so to speak. So, in my mind, it would go like this:

1. I get to draw a card.
2. I am using the VIP to pick 2 cards that I COULD draw. (havent drawn any yet)
3. I select which of the 2 I would like to draw, the other goes under the deck (havent drawn any yet).
4. I will now "draw" my card. I can choose to do 2 things to complete the action.
a. put that card in my hand
b. convert that one card into a download
5. I select which I will do.
6. Do it. I have now completed the "action" of my draw of my 1 card.
7. Repeat for other things that allow me to draw more.

So, what I am rejecting is calling pulling two cards off the top of my deck "drawing" in the traditional sense. VIP modifies my traditional "draw" so I haven't until that card is chosen and then I further choose what to do with that card (hand or convert).

When the OP says he/she wants to "draw 2 then convert both" I think it's a misinterpretation of the word "draw" as something too simple (take cards off the top of my deck".
I don't believe there's any evidence in the rules to support your interpretation. The rules specify that each draw is a separate action. The rules also state that a valid response can be made to each sub-action of a group-action.
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