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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#547324
commdecker wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:15 pm
patrick wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:52 am
Ensign Q wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:32 am there are a couple mission that dl stuff. it would be weird if this was an addittional solving requirement instead of a benefit lol
I found three that download something when solved. (And that do not say "may".)
Renovate Starbase
Establish Relations
Construct Depot

What happens if you solve Establish Relations if you do not have any [NA] personnel (left) in your deck?
Then you have to initiate the download, and when you say that you have no targets available, then you must allow your opponent to look through your deck (and hand and tent) to verify that. That's the danger that @Data's Socks was probably thinking of. But it doesn't invalidate the solve -- that rule that @pfti mentioned is about playing or seeding a card.
This is the practical solution, and how folks (should) play today. But... it illuminates yet another part of 1E where rules don't align across use-cases. In one case, the rules say you can't do a thing because the download doesn't happen. In another case, you can do a thing even though the download doesn't happen.

The simple solution, of course, is to errata the missions to say "may download". Then there's no use-case discrepancy of results.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#547556
Yeah, any concerns about not being able to solve (but maybe it was the ol' verification) were reassured by the rules looking to be okay with it--and surely it'd have been noted now and then otherwise.

This thread just has me startled from the other direction. I don't suppose 1E uses "To seed..." or "To play..." and can't begin to imagine what that might do to the rules. I'll have to pay more attention to that linkage anyway.
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#547590
Data's Socks wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:42 pm Yeah, any concerns about not being able to solve (but maybe it was the ol' verification) were reassured by the rules looking to be okay with it--and surely it'd have been noted now and then otherwise.

This thread just has me startled from the other direction. I don't suppose 1E uses "To seed..." or "To play..." and can't begin to imagine what that might do to the rules. I'll have to pay more attention to that linkage anyway.
we have a "plays to [requirement]" phrase which is pretty much the same Tactical Console
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#550227
Wanted to get back to something earlier in thread, but the rules digging took a bit longer than expected!
BCSWowbagger wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:29 am
Although some downloads are optional, others require you to download a certain target card (or group of target cards). If you cannot do everything required, the entire download is invalid.
And yet, having cited those entries... it almost feels like something that doesn't need backing up, doesn't it? If you want to play a card, but that card says you must do something as part of playing the card, and you can't do that thing, then the card itself has just told you that you can't play it. This logic is pretty foundational to the whole concept of mandatory downloads.
I found this interesting because my initial thought was that the download was not actually a part of playing a card, but happens only after the card is played and the rest of its game text is doing its thing. The closest I could find to the rules detailing the steps to playing a card was under "actions - step 1: initiation", where it doesn't seem immediately obvious to me that the download represents a cost (e.g. a normal card play) or that it being valid is a legality check (e.g. Tactical Console being choosy about what it's played on).

Whether or not the two are separated may also be hinted at by what happens to the card if the download is invalid. (The mention in the Glossary that a resource "remains used" seemed a little ambiguous to me.) If the card returns to hand that could indicate an invalid play, whereas if it's discarded, that could indicate the play was valid despite an invalid download. Best I could find that goes into detail is a Major Rakal's Romulan Review that mentions for Activate Subcommands "If you attempt a download that expends some "resource" (you play a card, you use a special icon, you forfeit your card draw), and the download proves invalid, the resource is still used. In the above example, the Activate Subcommands card is still discarded, and you cannot play another card this turn, even though your download failed."

Some thoughts on this line of thinking, anyway!
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#550464
long story short, rules are probably already working on rewriting the rules to make this "failed download" actually a thing.
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By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#556734
commdecker wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:15 pm
patrick wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:52 am
Ensign Q wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:32 am there are a couple mission that dl stuff. it would be weird if this was an addittional solving requirement instead of a benefit lol
I found three that download something when solved. (And that do not say "may".)
Renovate Starbase
Establish Relations
Construct Depot

What happens if you solve Establish Relations if you do not have any [NA] personnel (left) in your deck?
Then you have to initiate the download, and when you say that you have no targets available, then you must allow your opponent to look through your deck (and hand and tent) to verify that. That's the danger that @Data's Socks was probably thinking of. But it doesn't invalidate the solve -- that rule that @pfti mentioned is about playing or seeding a card.
Is this official? The mission remains solved and you get the points, but opponent gets to look through your deck/hand/q's tent?
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Director of Communications
By OKCoyote (Daniel Matteson)
 - Director of Communications
 -  
1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#556740
Yes, but in the case of Establish Relations, this is no longer the case- Official Tournament Sealed Deck Remastered releases next week and you can see the new wording on Establish Relations on the site today, making the download a "may" ability and not required.
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By Boffo97 (Dave Hines)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Retired Moderator
#556741
You were just waiting for the article to go up to answer that question, weren't you? ;)
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Director of Communications
By OKCoyote (Daniel Matteson)
 - Director of Communications
 -  
1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#556742
Boffo97 wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:12 am You were just waiting for the article to go up to answer that question, weren't you? ;)
Maybe? :-)
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By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#556810
Boffo97 wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:12 am You were just waiting for the article to go up to answer that question, weren't you? ;)
i swear this was a total coincidence lol okay so Establish Relations says "may". What about the other two?
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Regent
Community Contributor
#556811
Takket wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:12 pm
Boffo97 wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:12 am You were just waiting for the article to go up to answer that question, weren't you? ;)
i swear this was a total coincidence lol okay so Establish Relations says "may". What about the other two?
The other two are still mandatory and those sets aren't being remastered at the moment, so make sure you pack a valid target somewhere in your deck. :wink:

But yeah, the download is a consequence of solving the mission (i.e., the solve has already happened before you even trigger the download) so worst case your opponent gets to play peek-a-boo. If you just solved for the win it hardly matters.
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