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 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#547130
Ensign Q wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:42 pm the first time i hear about this rule. where is is backed up?
I just thought that too a moment ago. I based that entire conversation based on others talking about it in the preview thread....

I would also like that backed up.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#547144
The first and perhaps clearest example of this being applied to a download (and printed in an official ruling) is Montana Missile Complex:
Seeding a Phoenix from outside the game beneath this time location is mandatory. If you do not have a Phoenix to seed, you may not play the time location.
I've pointed to a line in the downloading Glossary entry that I think makes the same point more generally -- albeit badly and in a way that's in need of cleanup:
Although some downloads are optional, others require you to download a certain target card (or group of target cards). If you cannot do everything required, the entire download is invalid.
And yet, having cited those entries... it almost feels like something that doesn't need backing up, doesn't it? If you want to play a card, but that card says you must do something as part of playing the card, and you can't do that thing, then the card itself has just told you that you can't play it. This logic is pretty foundational to the whole concept of mandatory downloads.

Not a perfect analogy, but playing a card with a mandatory download that fails (but then leaving the card in play) would be sort of like playing Tactical Console on an undocked ship with no SECURITY aboard. The game doesn't say, "Oh, sure, you can do that, it just won't have any effect because the conditions weren't met." The game also doesn't say anywhere explicitly, "No, you can't do that." The card tells you under what you have to do to play it -- and, since you can't accomplish those things, you can't play it. It stays in your hand, and, if you play it anyway, your opponent will point out the illegality and you will undo the play. Having any other rule for this situation, it seems to me, would be exactly the kind of newbie-hostile rules-loophole spaghetti that both of you correctly and forthrightly condemn on a regular basis.

Anyway, if you think this is improper generalization from the Montana Missile Complex precedent to try to cover a big area that the rules don't currently actually cover, I'll certainly listen to the discussion... but Rules and Design have built quite a lot of cards around the assumption that mandatory downloads cannot be bypassed. (e.g. Obsession, Sherman's Planet, Federation Flagship: Relaunched; Consume: Outpost.) We cite it internally on a regular basis, both within teams and between them, and have done so for years. (I can only assume that Decipher Rules did the same, because I have never managed to find Kathy McCracken's current email address.)

If this assumption isn't currently sufficiently clear in / supported by the current rules documents, then my guess is that the rules docs will end up getting updated (rather than the assumption) -- unless this discussion shows that there is something unforeseen and dangerous about the assumption itself.
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#547148
Although some downloads are optional, others require you to download a certain target card (or group of target cards). If you cannot do everything required, the entire download is invalid.
this applies to ams, saying you need to dl 2 personnel not just one. has nothing to do with other dls. also only says dl is invalid, not card is nullified. meaning you could still play ams on table and fail to dl personnel.


and i wonder where the montana rule comes from, since its impossible to not find a phoenix from outside the game
if this is from decipher days, i guess they wanted you to physically own the card to play the related cards, not to enforce downloads

tactical console only requires a docked ship, not a security to play it. as long as their is no security it has no effect though. dont get how this is connected to downloads though.

guess you guys need to change the rules if you want to have that effect in place.
players also regularely play a 2nd consume outpost on the same mission, if they got bijed. so its definitely not a well known assumption/rule to begin with
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#547158
Some clarification would be welcome for sure. :cheersL:

One thing I'd use an eventual Rules Temporal Almanac for is that I thought there was something about Construct Depot and it being a very bad thing not to have a spare Remote Supply Depot to download. Unfortunately, I can't remember anything more about it--and maybe it was just a forum discussion to begin with. But I got spooked enough that whenever coming back from a break, after reviewing where downloads can and should go, reviewing failure to download isn't far behind.
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#547162
there are a couple mission that dl stuff. it would be weird if this was an addittional solving requirement instead of a benefit lol
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By patrick (Patrick Weijers)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#547279
Ensign Q wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:32 am there are a couple mission that dl stuff. it would be weird if this was an addittional solving requirement instead of a benefit lol
I found three that download something when solved. (And that do not say "may".)
Renovate Starbase
Establish Relations
Construct Depot

What happens if you solve Establish Relations if you do not have any [NA] personnel (left) in your deck?
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#547280
I know there have been plenty of times I have solved Construct Depot without any Depot's left in my deck to download. I never gave it a second thought whether it was optional. I suppose, for the sake of consistency, those downloads should be interpreted as "must" requirements to solve.
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#547295
JeBuS wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:58 am I know there have been plenty of times I have solved Construct Depot without any Depot's left in my deck to download. I never gave it a second thought whether it was optional. I suppose, for the sake of consistency, those downloads should be interpreted as "must" requirements to solve.
under current rules there is no enforcement of downloads, for now its only an assumption/misinterpretation of it.
at best its a temporary rule, but we havent had red text here.
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#547296
patrick wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:52 am
Ensign Q wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:32 am there are a couple mission that dl stuff. it would be weird if this was an addittional solving requirement instead of a benefit lol
I found three that download something when solved. (And that do not say "may".)
Renovate Starbase
Establish Relations
Construct Depot

What happens if you solve Establish Relations if you do not have any [NA] personnel (left) in your deck?
it gets even crazier
HQ: Secure Homeworld
When you solve mission, capture all opposing personnel on planet who do not match affiliation of homeworld.

so u cant solve homeworlds without opponent cooperating anymore
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#547298
JeBuS wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:10 am
Ensign Q wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:05 am it gets even crazier
HQ: Secure Homeworld
When you solve mission, capture all opposing personnel on planet who do not match affiliation of homeworld.

so u cant solve homeworlds without opponent cooperating anymore
That one isn't the same, since 100% of 0 is 0.
no target, no capture, no solving
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#547299
Ensign Q wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:13 am
JeBuS wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:10 am
Ensign Q wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:05 am it gets even crazier
HQ: Secure Homeworld
When you solve mission, capture all opposing personnel on planet who do not match affiliation of homeworld.

so u cant solve homeworlds without opponent cooperating anymore
That one isn't the same, since 100% of 0 is 0.
no target, no capture, no solving
If the card tells you to capture zero personnel, it also tells you to target zero personnel for capture. And thus, if you target no personnel, you have fulfilled its text.
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#547300
ok, i think youre right, since its not a targeted capture.

im pretty sure something else brakes when all non-may trigger become enforced though.
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By commdecker (Matthew Zinno)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Arbiter
Community Contributor
#547322
patrick wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:52 am
Ensign Q wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:32 am there are a couple mission that dl stuff. it would be weird if this was an addittional solving requirement instead of a benefit lol
I found three that download something when solved. (And that do not say "may".)
Renovate Starbase
Establish Relations
Construct Depot

What happens if you solve Establish Relations if you do not have any [NA] personnel (left) in your deck?
Then you have to initiate the download, and when you say that you have no targets available, then you must allow your opponent to look through your deck (and hand and tent) to verify that. That's the danger that @Data's Socks was probably thinking of. But it doesn't invalidate the solve -- that rule that @pfti mentioned is about playing or seeding a card.
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