User avatar
 
By Dukat (Andreas Rheinländer)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
1E German National Runner-Up 2024
#560235
Hi guys,

the following scenario:
- I have personnel aboard a ship attempting a mission and they have a bunch of E.T.U. with them
- at the same location, I have another ship (let's say docked at a facility)

My attempting ship is about to be destroyed. That means the personnel inside is about to be killed.
I use those E.T.U.s to place them on the ship that is docked.

That works, right?
User avatar
 
By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#560236
Dukat wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:59 am Hi guys,

the following scenario:
- I have personnel aboard a ship attempting a mission and they have a bunch of E.T.U. with them
- at the same location, I have another ship (let's say docked at a facility)

My attempting ship is about to be destroyed. That means the personnel inside is about to be killed.
I use those E.T.U.s to place them on the ship that is docked.

That works, right?
Hmmm... I'm not sure.

"Killed by a dilemma" is the trigger. Personnel are killed when a ship is destroyed, so my initial answer was going to be "sure, this works, as long as the thing doing the destroying is a dilemma" ... but how far down does that reach? If a dilemma destroys a ship, and a ship being destroyed kills the people aboard, are the people "killed by a dilemma" or are they "killed by their ship going boom"?

Do we need to dig out the Mona Lisa ruling? Because I hate that card. It breaks my brain every time... :x
User avatar
Chief Programmer
By eberlems
 - Chief Programmer
 -  
Explorer
2E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E  National Second Runner-Up 2023
#560237
The rules seem a bit inconsistent there.
https://www.trekcc.org/op/1e_rulebook/index.html#killed-or-destroyed wrote:Cards that are killed or destroyed leave play normally, usually to the discard pile. All personnel aboard a ship or facility when it is destroyed are killed, and all equipment present is destroyed.

Examples: Armus - Skin of Evil, Vulcan Stone of Gol, V'Ger, Disruptor Overload
https://www.trekcc.org/op/1e_rulebook/index.html#SHIPBATTLE wrote:All ships or facilities with -100% HULL damage (or worse) are destroyed; discard them and any personnel, ships, equipment, or other cards onboard.
Edit to avoid questions on when ships vanish with facilities:
https://www.trekcc.org/op/1e_rulebook/Glossary.html#Battle wrote:Facilities participate in battle and are damaged or destroyed in the same manner as ships. See Rulebook: Ship Battle, damage. When a facility is destroyed, all personnel aboard or "in" the facility are killed. Ships docked at the facility are not destroyed (except those landed on Docking Pads).
Seems personnel are killed when a ship gets destroyed. Not sure about personnel on landed ships within destroyed ships/facilities.
User avatar
 
By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#560242
to further complicate this situation...

There is a rule that if a dilemma destroys your ship, and your opponent is using a battle bridge, you have to suffer the deaths from the tactics. The reason being that persons killed by the tactic cannot be saved later by playing a card like escape pod. so if a tactic kills someone as part of the ship being destroyed, can i save that person with ETU?
User avatar
First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#560252
eberlems wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:19 am The rules seem a bit inconsistent there.
I'm confused, because I don't see an inconsistency there. You discard all cards aboard a destroyed ship (per the ship battle rule) because they have just been killed (per the killed or destroyed rule). These say the same thing, in slightly different ways.
User avatar
Chief Programmer
By eberlems
 - Chief Programmer
 -  
Explorer
2E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E  National Second Runner-Up 2023
#560255
BCSWowbagger wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 9:05 pm
eberlems wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:19 am The rules seem a bit inconsistent there.
I'm confused, because I don't see an inconsistency there. You discard all cards aboard a destroyed ship (per the ship battle rule) because they have just been killed (per the killed or destroyed rule). These say the same thing, in slightly different ways.
Slightly different ways are most of the time different for a reason. Is discarded for personnel the same as killed? In 2E it is not.
User avatar
 
By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#560260
Oh God, please don't bring 2e into this mess! :x

As a general rule, All killed personnel are discarded, not all discarded personnel are killed. If that general rule doesn't hold, it's because a card went and did something different, which is not part of this question so let's ignore that bit and stick with the general case.

But for ETU, what's doing the killing is every bit as relevant, which is why this question is a lot tougher than it initially appears to (or maybe should) be...
User avatar
First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#560270
eberlems wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 9:16 pm
BCSWowbagger wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 9:05 pm
eberlems wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:19 am The rules seem a bit inconsistent there.
I'm confused, because I don't see an inconsistency there. You discard all cards aboard a destroyed ship (per the ship battle rule) because they have just been killed (per the killed or destroyed rule). These say the same thing, in slightly different ways.
Slightly different ways are most of the time different for a reason. Is discarded for personnel the same as killed? In 2E it is not.
Ah, so the ship battle entry should say they are killed? I'll make a note of that for October's release.

For now: yes, absolutely, personnel who are on a ship that is destroyed (in battle or otherwise) are killed (unless something like Escape Pod intervenes).
User avatar
 
By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#560272
All good, James, @BCSWowbagger but to the original question, how many steps back does that go?

Is a personnel considered "killed by a dilemma" if V'Ger blows up the ship? Or is the personnel getting killed by the ship going boom?

Example 2, one step deeper: if I encounter Scout Encounter (or Nelvana Trap), and my opponent's ship blows me up in battle, did they get "killed by a dilemma" for purposes of ETU?

Etc. Etc.
User avatar
First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#560275
Is a personnel considered "killed by a dilemma" if V'Ger blows up the ship? Or is the personnel getting killed by the ship going boom?
I'm only here to answer easy questions tonight, Armus! :)

The Mona Lisa ruling won't help you very much, I'm afraid: it specifically exempts dilemmas. According to Mona Lisa, dilemmas are nobody's fault.

Are there any other examples in the game that present similar questions? I can't think of any.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#560285
I asked a similar question a few days ago in Franklin's thread about whether The Needs of the Many... can nullify a Borg Ship, if your ship is about to be destroyed in battle with it. I've copied it here:
This may be controversial, but I actually want to say that The Needs of the Many... can't nullify Borg Ship this way. The Borg Ship isn't directly destroying your ship, it's the rotation damage or Tactic doing the destruction. (As opposed to, say, failing to meet the requirements of V'Ger.) If we allow "causation" to be transitive (Borg Ship -> battle damage -> destroying my ship) this way, the chain could be stretched far enough that The Needs of the Many... seems absurd. Can it nullify a Scout Encounter that downloaded a ship that initiated battle that caused enough damage to destroy your ship? What about Royale Casino: Elevator if it lets my opponent report a Bashir Founder who then downloads a Supernova to destroy my ship? etc.

But on reflection, this may not be consistent with the simplified Mona Lisa rules for determining fault. So I don't know.


I'll admit this was a bit of a hot take, and after some more thought we play cards like Latinum Payoff as if a ship directly destroys another ship, rather than the battle damage. But it raises a similar question to Armus's here, about how far back causality goes when determining who or what is killing a personnel or destroying a ship.
User avatar
 
By DarkSabre (Austin Chandler)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#560288
Truly not understanding the question here.

I don’t remember when but I remember that it was established that killed by a dilemma is a direct kill so the dilemma itself has to be the direct cause. Blowing up the ship is an indirect cause and therefore ETU wouldn’t work in that scenario.

If I was running a tournament that would be my call. I remember it being ruled that way in other tournaments I have been at when it’s come up. Sorry just don’t remember the when and how of that.

As for tactics, the ship is causing the tactics to be played onto your ship. It’s tbe ‘damage’ from the ship against your ship, so the damage is still from the ship attacking you it’s just in the form of rotational markers instead. It isn’t a huge leap to say that and doesn’t change rules much at all for it.
User avatar
First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#560323
Dukat wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:49 pm Sooo ... what is the official ruling on this?
For now, there doesn't appear to be one, so the official ruling is whatever your local Tournament Director considers the most appropriate interpretation of the rules. If T.D.'s are struggling with it, or reach different conclusions, the Rules Committee will likely step in... but Rules is slow, and T.D.'s make the bulk of the important rulings.

I was researching this a bit tonight, and I noticed that this wording ("killed by a dilemma") was imported into First Edition from Second Edition. Most of the cards that use it are conversions, and the only Decipher card to use it was from All Good Things.

So here's a question I ask very, very, very rarely: what would the answer to this question be in Second Edition? It would be useful to know.
User avatar
 
By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#560325
BCSWowbagger wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 1:01 am
So here's a question I ask very, very, very rarely: what would the answer to this question be in Second Edition? It would be useful to know.
Didn't I already warn y'all not to bring 2e into this mess? FFS. :x :roll:

Emergency Transport Unit

Ok, assuming the same fact pattern (or the closest 2e equivalent), if a dilemma gets placed as a damage marker (e.g., Gomtuu Shock Wave) and that damage marker is the 3rd one placed on the ship, the ship is destroyed.

However, under 2e rules, personnel aboard a destroyed ship are very specifically NOT KILLED - they are simply placed in their owner's discard pile.

So in this example, you could not ETU a person aboard the destroyed ship to a different ship because there's never a point where they're "about to be killed" and able to trigger the ETU.

That said, given the fundamental rules differences between the games, I'm not sure how useful this answer (or this question) is in arriving at any sort of conclusion to the 1e rules question.

Also, not for nothing, but it's worth pointing out that the 2e ETU is specifically NOT limited to dilemma kills.

I'm wondering who on the Shades of Gray team decided to make that change and why, as this question is their fault. :P
1EFQ: Game of two halves

Honestly, I don’t think I’ve re[…]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!

Happy birthday to @Takket ! :D :thumbsup: […]

Opponents turn

Remodulation