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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#560326
Armus wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 1:28 am However, under 2e rules, personnel aboard a destroyed ship are very specifically NOT KILLED - they are simply placed in their owner's discard pile.
Wait, really? What? That's crazy talk! No wonder this question got asked in 1E so often that we had to write a rule about it! 2E had already taken the crazy pills!

Okay, yep, that makes the 2E rule pretty useless, because personnel in 1E definitely die when their ships blow up. Thanks for explaining, though.
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#560341
It's always Warren Holland's fault, because he started the company and without that Joe Ensign would never have died. :)

I'm inclined to read it rather literally - this lets a personnel who was killed by a dilemma, with no intermediate steps.

If the dilemma blows up your ship, the dilemma didn't kill the people on board - the ship blowing up did. Ditto for tactics. People were killed by ship damage, not by the dilemma.
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Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
 - Online OP Coordinator
 -  
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#560342
AllenGould wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:40 am It's always Warren Holland's fault, because he started the company and without that Joe Ensign would never have died. :)

I'm inclined to read it rather literally - this lets a personnel who was killed by a dilemma, with no intermediate steps.

If the dilemma blows up your ship, the dilemma didn't kill the people on board - the ship blowing up did. Ditto for tactics. People were killed by ship damage, not by the dilemma.
Seems legit to me
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By Boffo97 (Dave Hines)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Retired Moderator
#560346
I put a 1E card next to a 2E card once. They blew up and killed me. But the 2E card said I was only discarded.

...

I got better.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#560350
pfti wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:45 am
AllenGould wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:40 am It's always Warren Holland's fault, because he started the company and without that Joe Ensign would never have died. :)

I'm inclined to read it rather literally - this lets a personnel who was killed by a dilemma, with no intermediate steps.

If the dilemma blows up your ship, the dilemma didn't kill the people on board - the ship blowing up did. Ditto for tactics. People were killed by ship damage, not by the dilemma.
Seems legit to me
This intuition matches mine.

The only thing that gives me any pause about this framework is that, when a ship is destroyed by damage (whether rotation damage or tactic damage), it is universally agreed (for purposes of Ultimatum, Latinum Payoff, Caretaker's Array, etc.) that the ship was destroyed by the attacking ship / destroying card, not the damage marker (again, whether rotation damage or tactic damage).
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By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#560354
ETU should say “if a personnel dies during a dilemma encounter…” or something to that effect.

If I’m reading the glossary correctly a dilemma encounter is all one action that can have several subactions so all the things like placing damage markers and discarding ships are all part in one action of a dilemma encounter. And if your personnel die during the encounter, you should be able to use ETU. :twocents:
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By Enabran
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
2E Austrian National Second Runner-Up 2022
#560431
BCSWowbagger wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:31 am
Armus wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 1:28 am However, under 2e rules, personnel aboard a destroyed ship are very specifically NOT KILLED - they are simply placed in their owner's discard pile.
Wait, really? What? That's crazy talk! No wonder this question got asked in 1E so often that we had to write a rule about it! 2E had already taken the crazy pills!

Okay, yep, that makes the 2E rule pretty useless, because personnel in 1E definitely die when their ships blow up. Thanks for explaining, though.
Yes now. A few years back, when the new rulebook doesn't exist, that wasn't clear. And at that time there were many discussions about it, because the Glossary said also, that the personnel on a destroyed ship are just discarded. Quote from the old Glossary: "Destroyed ships and facilities (and all cards aboard them) are discarded" or the entry for discarding: "When multiple discards result from the same action (e.g., you discard a destroyed ship and
all cards aboard; you discard your entire hand using Handshake), place the cards in your discard pile one at a time (allowing your opponent to see them), in the order you choose. "
Last edited by Enabran on Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By Dukat (Andreas Rheinländer)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
1E German National Runner-Up 2024
#560433
Takket wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:02 pm ETU should say “if a personnel dies during a dilemma encounter…” or something to that effect.

If I’m reading the glossary correctly a dilemma encounter is all one action that can have several subactions so all the things like placing damage markers and discarding ships are all part in one action of a dilemma encounter. And if your personnel die during the encounter, you should be able to use ETU. :twocents:
I think so too.

Everything that results from the dilemma, including ship destruction, happens while the dilemma is still revealed and it is not put away until the ship is gone.
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By DarkSabre (Austin Chandler)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#560445
Dukat wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:34 am
Takket wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:02 pm ETU should say “if a personnel dies during a dilemma encounter…” or something to that effect.

If I’m reading the glossary correctly a dilemma encounter is all one action that can have several subactions so all the things like placing damage markers and discarding ships are all part in one action of a dilemma encounter. And if your personnel die during the encounter, you should be able to use ETU. :twocents:
I think so too.

Everything that results from the dilemma, including ship destruction, happens while the dilemma is still revealed and it is not put away until the ship is gone.
Which is why it isn't written that way. It would give too much time to try and grab an ETU somehow to save one of the 'precious' in-play personnel. REM dilemma is one possibility where you could save personnel in that scenario if you didn't have ETU there yet but gives you three turns to do so instead. Sleeper Trap could be theoretically argued in that scenario as well. It keeps on going, and then you can start arguing tactic cards into the mix.

I'll blame 2E for this complete nonsense. It's plain language in English. Killed by dilemma means killed directly by a dilemma. Not a tactic card. Not a card that gets played as a result of a dilemma, not a ship being blown up by a dilemma. It has to be the direct cause.

Maybe this should be added to the glossary since it gets asked so much under 'killed' because I'm sure in the future we might make cards that say 'killed by' (please I hope so for a future DS9 set) and need to set the record straight.
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By Enabran
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
2E Austrian National Second Runner-Up 2022
#560454
Environmental Suit

You may discard this equipment to prevent a personnel present from being killed by a dilemma or a Tactic card (that personnel is stopped instead).
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By DarkSabre (Austin Chandler)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#560488
Enabran wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:05 pm Environmental Suit

You may discard this equipment to prevent a personnel present from being killed by a dilemma or a Tactic card (that personnel is stopped instead).
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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