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By Dukat (Andreas Rheinländer)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
1E German National Runner-Up 2024
#560754
Hi guys,

quick question:
Can Rinnak Pire be downloaded to any Bajoran Ship using Ready Room Door?

After all, he is the matching commander of any ❖ Bajoran ship.

I would argue no, because it is a skill and the skill is not 'active' before entering play, but maybe I overlooked something.
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By Dukat (Andreas Rheinländer)
 - Gamma Quadrant
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1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
1E German National Runner-Up 2024
#560759
I do not know ...
All other skills are special skills, such as "[SD]If on Cha'Joh, it is RANGE +2." Special skills that provide general modifiers like this are "always on."
Is his special skill a general modifier?

Does 'always on' means 'even if not in play'?

(The stripped down new Rulebook / Glossary is pretty unclear on this. Not sure if the old Glossary has an answer, but it is outdated, so it does not help to consult it.)
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Regent
Community Contributor
#560760
Dukat wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:30 am I don't know ...
All other skills are special skills, such as "[SD]If on Cha'Joh, it is RANGE +2." Special skills that provide general modifiers like this are "always on."
Is his special skill a general modifier?

Does 'always on' means 'even if not in play'?

(The stripped down new Rulebook / Glossary is pretty unclear on this. Not sure if the old Glossary has an answer, but it is outdated, so it does not help to consult it.)
It's "always on" once he's in play for sure.

I downloaded him with Scout Encounter in my Nationals deck last year and with Captain's Log in play he boosted the ship during the battle, which wouldn't have been possible if I needed an action to "activate" his skill.

As for whether or not you can download him with RRD... I don't know, but it seems like relevant text in the context of valid RRD Targets similar to a lore reference on a personnel in your deck.

I'm sure somebody with more rules savvy than me can defend or refute this hypothesis better than I can, but if you can't download Rinnak Pire with RRD, then somebody needs to explain to me why not while also explaining why lore references in deck are ok.

If we're going with the 'text is only active on cards in play' logic, then it would seem to me that the only valid RRD targets are ones that are named in lore on a ship already in play, and RRD is much more limited than I've ever seen it played.

So at a local event where I'm the TD, I'm ruling it a valid play.

:twocents:
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#560767
Dukat wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:30 am (The stripped down new Rulebook / Glossary is pretty unclear on this. Not sure if the old Glossary has an answer, but it is outdated, so it does not help to consult it.)
Parts of the old Glossary are deleted if and only if every single rule and ruling in them is covered by the new Rulebook, so the answer to this, at least, is "no." (Or should be! Obviously let me know if that is false, and, if so, tell me where so it can be fixed.)
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#560768
As for the question: I can't see why this wouldn't work. As soon as you initiate the action of downloading Rinnak Pire, he has all his features (including icons and skills) and is yours. If this were not true, Crew Reassignment would not work, because your personnel wouldn't have their staffing icons until after reporting!

The only exception to this that I can think of is features that are selected "when reported" (which must happen after reporting completes) and shared skills (which, again, don't kick in until reporting resolves):
Glossary: report wrote:Selected or shared features or skills do not exist until you have reported the personnel for duty. For example, the card Soong-type Android may not report to a site allowing a certain classification to report, because it has no classification before reporting; skills are not shared by drones being reported to a hive with skill-sharing enabled, until after they have been reported. See skills - modifying. See showing your cards.
Therefore, as far as I can tell, this works.
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#560775
eberlems wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 1:25 pm For me the word "may" in his skill "may be matching commander..." is the main issue.
All other commanders just are commanders by their lore or by lore of the ship.
Rinnak Pire just has the skill that gives him (or the player) an option to be commander.
You're right, it is an odd phrasing, and that does throw me a little. But, in the end, I don't see a relevant difference between that phrasing and Li Nalas ("May seed under Cardassia IV"), which is also text that has to activate before he is considered fully reported.
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#560786
Dukat wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:46 pm Actually, the answer is not in the respective section:
https://www.trekcc.org/op/1e_rulebook/#USINGSKILLS

After reading that part, I could still not know if my initial hypothesis is correct or incorrect.
I agree that there is no direct, official answer to your question in the Glossary or Rulebook entries for Glossary: Rinnak Pire, Glossary: use (skills), Glossary: report, Rulebook: Using Skills, or Rulebook: Reporting for Duty (which is all the places I checked).

Now, you initially said that the current version of Rulebook / Glossary is "stripped down," and implied that this was the reason for the lack of an answer. Are you saying that this question used to be explicitly answered by the Glossary (v.1.9.6) but that this answer was deleted or stripped out? If so, can you tell me what was deleted or stripped out to make the answer to this unclear?

Or are you just saying that this is a question that the Glossary has never answered and it would be nice for the Rules Committee to officially rule on it for the first time? If that's what you're saying... sure, that makes reasonable sense to me.
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By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#560794
BCSWowbagger wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 3:46 pm
Dukat wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:46 pm Actually, the answer is not in the respective section:
https://www.trekcc.org/op/1e_rulebook/#USINGSKILLS

After reading that part, I could still not know if my initial hypothesis is correct or incorrect.
I agree that there is no direct, official answer to your question in the Glossary or Rulebook entries for Glossary: Rinnak Pire, Glossary: use (skills), Glossary: report, Rulebook: Using Skills, or Rulebook: Reporting for Duty (which is all the places I checked).

Now, you initially said that the current version of Rulebook / Glossary is "stripped down," and implied that this was the reason for the lack of an answer. Are you saying that this question used to be explicitly answered by the Glossary (v.1.9.6) but that this answer was deleted or stripped out? If so, can you tell me what was deleted or stripped out to make the answer to this unclear?

Or are you just saying that this is a question that the Glossary has never answered and it would be nice for the Rules Committee to officially rule on it for the first time? If that's what you're saying... sure, that makes reasonable sense to me.
Matching Commander in the glossary specifically mentioned Pire too. I think rather than "what says this works" maybe the question is "what says this doesn't work", and I don't see anything that fits that criteria
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 - First Edition Rules Master
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
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#560941
I can't think of why it wouldn't work - if Rinnak's skill doesn't qualify because he's not in play, why would lore count while not in play? :)
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#560948
It does seem weird, but as the other examples have shown a lot of cards rely on lore or gametext being "active" before the card is actually in play.

To muddy the waters just a little bit further, can such text be affected by cards in play? For example, can you use Ready Room Door to download Rinnak Pire to a ship affected by Preoccupied? My thought is
yes, since conditions are checked upon initiation of the action, and he only loses the skill after he is "aboard," which happens at resolution -- but I'll admit my understanding of what exactly is active before something enters play is fuzzy, so I'm not entirely sure.
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#560953
Rachmaninoff wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:16 pm can you use Ready Room Door to download Rinnak Pire to a ship affected by Preoccupied? My thought is
yes, since conditions are checked upon initiation of the action, and he only loses the skill after he is "aboard," which happens at resolution -- but I'll admit my understanding of what exactly is active before something enters play is fuzzy, so I'm not entirely sure.
I agree with this answer.

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