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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
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#561085
Today is a busy day at work, so I am not participating much, but rest assured that I am reading with interest.
 
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#561086
JeBuS wrote: "To play a card is to..." - fill in the blank.
"A card is in play if it has been played and..." - fill in the blank.
The rulebook (under "Playing a card") describes what it means to play a card and how to do it. (e.g., "To play a card, announce the title of the card and place it face-up on the table (or wherever the card directs). It has now been played.") More broadly, the section describes different ways cards are played, including reporting for duty and downloads. The definition does not rely on "in play" in any way.


The second one is actually not right. The glossary entry on "in play" explicitly lists what the criteria are. One of them is that a card has been played (and not nullified or discarded as part of its results), but this is not the only one. Face-up seed cards are in play despite never having been played.
 
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#561087
JeBuS wrote: OK, so let me ask you this. How do you "play" an Interrupt?
Rulebook, "playing a card": "To play a card, announce the title of the card and place it face-up on the table (or wherever the card directs). It has now been played."
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Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
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2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#561090
JeBuS wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:08 pm
pfti wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:06 pm That is why i also offered rules text that sovles the problems. Pointing at what you see as a gap isn't that useful unless you also take action to close the gap
Notice that rachmaninoff came to the opposite conclusion.

I'm taking action by discussing it with other folks. ;)
as a communication professor, yes talking is the START to action, but it is rarely sufficient.
Also Rachmaninoff and I are not disagreeing. The rules do specify what "in play" means. I was clarifying what it means to "play" something. These are not the same game term (although they are related).
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#561092
Rachmaninoff wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:13 pm
JeBuS wrote: "To play a card is to..." - fill in the blank.
"A card is in play if it has been played and..." - fill in the blank.
The rulebook (under "Playing a card") describes what it means to play a card and how to do it. (e.g., "To play a card, announce the title of the card and place it face-up on the table (or wherever the card directs). It has now been played.") More broadly, the section describes different ways cards are played, including reporting for duty and downloads. The definition does not rely on "in play" in any way.


The second one is actually not right. The glossary entry on "in play" explicitly lists what the criteria are. One of them is that a card has been played (and not nullified or discarded as part of its results), but this is not the only one. Face-up seed cards are in play despite never having been played.
Excellent, we're right on track. So we have established that cards can be "in play" without being "played".

Now, can we establish that cards that have been "played" are not "in play"? (For the sake of argument, let us assume that the cards have not "left play", which we'll try to avoid for now.) When an interrupt, such as A Change of Plans, plays to do something, is it "in play" while doing that thing?
pfti wrote:as a communication professor, yes talking is the START to action, but it is rarely sufficient.
So then you recognize why establishing a framework for discussion is important.
Also Rachmaninoff and I are not disagreeing. The rules do specify what "in play" means. I was clarifying what it means to "play" something. These are not the same game term (although they are related).
Your argument was that
Such a card is in-play until a rule or card removes it from the table or another card.
Rachmaninoff argued that
An "instantaneous" interrupt is discarded as part of its results, so it is never "in play."
So, it would seem to me (and please correct me if I am reading it wrong) that your argument is that there is a moment (albeit brief) where every one of those Interrupts is "in play" "on the table". Because it is "in play" until the rule about Interrupts self-discarding takes effect, right?
 
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#561094
JeBuS wrote: Excellent, we're right on track. So we have established that cards can be "in play" without being "played".

Now, can we establish that cards that have been "played" are not "in play"? (For the sake of argument, let us assume that the cards have not "left play", which we'll try to avoid for now.) When an interrupt, such as A Change of Plans, plays to do something, is it "in play" while doing that thing?
This is handled by the first bullet point under "in-play," and the stipulation at the end of the list that "in play" cards have not left play. So any card that has been played (and not nullified or discarded as part of its results), and which has not left play, is "in play." A card can have been "played" but not be "in-play" if those other conditions are violated.

The first bullet point under "in-play" uses the past tense to refer to the card's results, so a card is not in play until it has fully resolved. A Change of Plans discards as part of its results, so it is never "in play."
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Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
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2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#561095
An interrupt has to be in play long enough to be targeted by cards that respond to it, otherwise, they have nothing to target.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#561096
pfti wrote:An interrupt has to be in play long enough to be targeted by cards that respond to it, otherwise, they have nothing to target.
But what about the rules that say that a card doesn't "enter play" if its resolution results in it being discarded?

Can a card be "in play" without ever "entering play"?
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Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
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2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#561097
JeBuS wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:56 pm
pfti wrote:An interrupt has to be in play long enough to be targeted by cards that respond to it, otherwise, they have nothing to target.
But what about the rules that say that a card doesn't "enter play" if its resolution results in it being discarded?

Can a card be "in play" without ever "entering play"?
If we are going to define playing cards, I dont think we can say we play some cards into play and play other cards into some weird etherial state until they get to the discard pile. If we define playing, we are going to have to redefine what it means to be in play.

I also don't like cards impacting the game from outside play, down that road lies madness.
 
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#561098
pfti wrote: An interrupt has to be in play long enough to be targeted by cards that respond to it, otherwise, they have nothing to target.
My understanding is that valid responses are allowed because you have initiated an action (playing an interrupt), and so the general 3-step action rules apply. A card being "in play" is not required (and actually does not happen until the play resolves.). Note that the "actions - step 2: responses" entry does not use the phrase "in play" at all... the response is to the action, not to a card already in play as its result.
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By pfti (Jon Carter)
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2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#561099
If we are talking about writing rules for clarity, we should not hold onto old definitions as the goal, but rather look for what is consistent and clear (which is not that some cards impact the game without being in play.

Even if you can respond before a card is fully in play it has to enter play to effect the rest of the game.
So maybe a nullified card can not fully enter play, but interrupts that are not nullified should enter play to do whatever it is they do.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#561100
pfti wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 2:03 pm
JeBuS wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:56 pm
pfti wrote:An interrupt has to be in play long enough to be targeted by cards that respond to it, otherwise, they have nothing to target.
But what about the rules that say that a card doesn't "enter play" if its resolution results in it being discarded?

Can a card be "in play" without ever "entering play"?
If we are going to define playing cards, I dont think we can say we play some cards into play and play other cards into some weird etherial state until they get to the discard pile. If we define playing, we are going to have to redefine what it means to be in play.

I also don't like cards impacting the game from outside play, down that road lies madness.
I agree with this, without reservation.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#561102
pfti wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 2:05 pm If we are talking about writing rules for clarity, we should not hold onto old definitions as the goal, but rather look for what is consistent and clear (which is not that some cards impact the game without being in play.
Thank you for writing that. That's my aim here, but looking back, I don't know that I expressed it.
Even if you can respond before a card is fully in play it has to enter play to effect the rest of the game.
So maybe a nullified card can not fully enter play, but interrupts that are not nullified should enter play to do whatever it is they do.
I can only imagine what it is like to a non-native-English person to look at the rules and say "I can play this card, but it's not in play. The card I'm playing has an effect on the game, even though it is never in play." How can that not, inevitably, lead to all manner of confusion around any usage of the word "play"?
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Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
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2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#561103
Agreed. I think a better understanding of nullification is that the card is in play, but not long enough to have its effect.

But I think that is also part of a larger clarification of actions vs effects. I think many of the things that we all actions, could instead be chained effects of action (starting a mission attempt). If we did that, I think we could actually get to a fairly discrete list of actions (that would help temporal causality loop be a usable card). But that is a whole larger idea that I have been toying with
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
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#561107
Maybe we need something like "how to play a card" in the rules.

I can think of 2 examples off the top of my head:
Raw Deal CCG FAQ Timing Breakdown Entry wrote:1 Play the card. Until the card is moved to another area, it is not in any area while resolving the Timing Breakdown.
1a Reveal the card to all players and choose a target or targets for the card (if any.)

2a Determine the Fortitude cost for the card, including modifiers, the effects of the card’s player first, then his opponent’s effects. (Multiplication/division first, then addition/subtraction.) You may not play a card if you cannot meet the Fortitude cost, unless a ‘when played’ effect can lower the Fortitude cost; this effect can only be as a function of playing the card.
2b Determine that you can meet all of the 'must' requirements listed on the card.
2c Check that a Follow-up condition is met (if required), including any ‘ignore the text’ effects.

2d If any of these steps can not be satisfied, the sequence ends immediately and the card remains where it started. (It does not count as having been played.)
2e Apply any ‘when played’ effects from the card’s controller.

2f Apply any ‘when played’ effects from the opponent.


3a Apply damage modifiers from sources that you control. (Multiplication/division first, then addition/subtraction.)
3b Apply reversal modifiers of the card played.(self-plunging or maneuvers that bar reversals (Panics, Atomic Lariat, Shoots, etc.))


4 Apply damage modifiers from sources your targeted opponent controls. (Multiplication/division first, then addition/subtraction.)

5a Targeted opponent may play a reversal card or generate a reversal effect. (If he plays a reversal card, that card will follow its own Timing Breakdown sequence.)
5b If you played a card with Multi, targeted opponent may play or generate a second reversal after the first reversal has completed all effects and damage.
5c If the card is completely reversed, the Timing Breakdown ends.

6 The card is now 'Successfully Played' and enters the Ring Area. If this card is reversing the card in question (it is not the first reversal to a Multi, it is not Over Sell Maneuver), the affected maneuver is now considered reversed. (Any text on the card and any Traits on the card are considered to be in your Ring Area after this step is complete. This excludes text that would modify or trigger in any of the first six steps.)
6a Some cards are put into the Ringside Pile or other area instead of going to the Ring Area (Iron Will etc.) The Timing Breakdown still continues as normal, these cards never enter the Ring Area. They will resolve during the text resolution (Step 8.) at that time, and will still resolve to its destination even if blanked.

7a Effects you control (other than this card's text taking place when played or when successful played) that trigger on a Successfully Played card take place. In the event of more than one effect, you choose which order they occur.
7b Effects your opponent controls that trigger on a Successfully Played card take place. Opponent chooses the order. (This is where cards such as Over Sell Maneuver and Sustained Damage are played.)

8 Apply effects listed on the card, unless these effects take place ‘when played’ or ‘when this card is in’ a specified area.

9a Chance for activated damage modification (Sustained Damage, Los Guerreros)
9b Damage is overturned one card at a time. Appropriate reversals may be overturned. (This is also the Step where cards are overturned for Raw & Ready, Over Sell Maneuver, and other cards that replace damage with overturning cards.)

9c Effects generated from resolving a maneuver’s damage may be performed by the player of the original card (searching for a Chain card, for example)
9d Effects generated from resolving a maneuver’s damage may be performed by the opponent (Jamie Noble’s superstar ability, activating There’s No Holding Me Back)

9e Any ‘end the turn’ effects are resolved, along with any effects triggered by ending the turn.
Or, if you prefer something closer to home...
"2e Rulebook, Playing a Card Entry" wrote:playing a card – Below is the timing sequence for playing a card during a player’s Play and Draw Cards segment and response actions involving that card.

1. Active Player (the player whose turn it is) examines the information available to him or her and determines that he or she can pay the costs to play a card in his or her hand and, if the card is to enter play, verifies that there is a location at which the card may do so.

2. The Active Player announces his or her intention to play said card, reveals the card from his or her hand, and declares where it will enter play using gametext that allows the play. Any gametext on the card required to play it to its destination activates.

3. The card’s cost-related gametext activates. Cost-related response actions process beginning with the Active Player.

4. Active Player pays all costs of playing the card.

5. Mandatory “prevent” response actions process beginning with the Active Player.

6. Optional “prevent” response actions process beginning with the Active Player.

7. If the playing of the card has not been prevented, that card enters play at the location specified by the Active Player, it becomes subject to any applicable conditional effects, its non-cost-related gametext becomes active and the Active Player now commands the card.

8. Mandatory “When . . . (play/plays/played)” response actions process beginning with the Active Player.

9. Optional “When . . . (play/plays/played)” response actions process beginning with the Active Player.

10. Once all response actions are complete, the Active Player may continue his or her Play and Draw Cards segment
Notice that in both examples, the card does not "enter play" until AFTER the responses steps, which is the same for 1e, so I don't know what pfti was going on about earlier about a card needing to be "in play" to be responded to.

Maybe 1e isn't as clear in the details (a fixable problem), but as a player of all 3 games, it makes sense to me that playing a card doesn't totally happen (including it landing "in play" if applicable) until after relevant response opportunities have come and gone.

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