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By Dukat (Andreas Rheinländer)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
1E German National Runner-Up 2024
#561035
Hi guys,

Continuing Mission and Reshape The Quadrant both state that they are discarded if I play or have played personnel or ships without the respective icons.

What about an Assign Mission Specialist download of personnel without those icons?


I was wondering about the specific meaning of the term play.
The Glossary actually does not have an entry called 'play', neither does the Rulebook.

There is a play phase, but that phase only begins AFTER the seed phase.

Regarding downloads in the seed phase, the Glossary states ...
Then you must immediately play or report the card (or seed it, via a "download and seed" action)
Using the letter of the law in this case, it means that a card that is downloaded in the seed phase is 'downloaded and seeded', NOT played.

According to the Glossary, a card downloaded that way is of course considered 'in play', but not 'played'.


So I dare to say that I can download any mission specialists I want without having to nullify my Continuing Mission and Reshape The Quadrant - because of the way the Glossary is worded.
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First Edition Creative Manager
By KazonPADD (Paddy Tye)
 - First Edition Creative Manager
 -  
1E European Continental Runner-Up 2023
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Champion 2023
#561036
No. Download = play.

The ways to not break CM or RtQ are seeding in a cryosatellite, seeding like Rishon, or exchanging (ie playing Gowron, then exchanging for Chancellor Gowron)
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By Dukat (Andreas Rheinländer)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
1E German National Runner-Up 2024
#561037
KazonPADD wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:27 am No. Download = play.
Says who?

I explicitely quoted the Glossary that says otherwise.

The Glossary makes an exception when it comes to downloades during the seed phase and it makes those cards not be defined as 'played', but 'downloaded and seeded'.

So if you like to tell me that download = play (during the seed phase), please quoute the appropriate section in the Glossary or the Rulebook.
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Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
 - Online OP Coordinator
 -  
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#561039
the only personel that count as seeded are ones that go under your mission
(see the seeding personnel entry)
Personel who are downloaded are reported. Which equal play

Seeded cards are only ones that are in your seed deck, or ones that explicitly direct you to seed them under missions at other times (download and seed)

ASP is neither, so they are played
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#561041
Swaps are also not plays.

Persona swap doesn't break RtQ/CM

Neither do exchanges. I had a DS9 block deck that ran CM and a bunch of copies of Macias and Starting Over to dump a bunch of [1E-DS9] [1E-Maq] people into my discard pile and dial-a-skill with Macias swaps.

It wasn't necessarily a good deck, but it was fun to play.

PS: I've been waiting for you let's you do Hologram shenanigans too. I haven't delved too far into that one, but it's another possibility.
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By Dukat (Andreas Rheinländer)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
1E German National Runner-Up 2024
#561045
pfti wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:37 am the only personel that count as seeded are ones that go under your mission
(see the seeding personnel entry)
Personel who are downloaded are reported. Which equal play

Seeded cards are only ones that are in your seed deck, or ones that explicitly direct you to seed them under missions at other times (download and seed)

ASP is neither, so they are played
Yet again, where in the Glossary or the Rulebook is that stated?

Please show me. (I have not found a section where that is explicetly covered.)
 
 - Beta Quadrant
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#561048
Dukat wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:07 am
pfti wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:37 am the only personel that count as seeded are ones that go under your mission
(see the seeding personnel entry)
Personel who are downloaded are reported. Which equal play

Seeded cards are only ones that are in your seed deck, or ones that explicitly direct you to seed them under missions at other times (download and seed)

ASP is neither, so they are played
Yet again, where in the Glossary or the Rulebook is that stated?

Please show me. (I have not found a section where that is explicetly covered.)
Glossary, "card play", emphasis mine:

A card play refers to any card played by any means (normal card play for the turn, normal interrupt or doorway play, a card played "for free," downloaded into play, Devidian Door, etc.), except those "drawn" from a side deck (such as a Tactic card drawn from a Battle Bridge side deck)


Edit: More directly, there is also this:

Glossary, "download":

When you choose the target card you must show it to your opponent.... Then you must immediately play or report the card

Glossary, "report":

Reporting a card is synonymous with playing a card
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#561049
We had this discussion when I first joined the forums and it remains true today,

The 3 [1E-AU] personnel seeded in a Cryosatellite are earned and not reported or played so they do not break Continuing Mission or Reshape the Quadrant.
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Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
 - Online OP Coordinator
 -  
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#561051
Dukat wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:07 am
pfti wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:37 am the only personel that count as seeded are ones that go under your mission
(see the seeding personnel entry)
Personel who are downloaded are reported. Which equal play Reporting glossary entry

Seeded cards are only ones that are in your seed deck, or ones that explicitly direct you to seed them under missions at other times (download and seed)
Rulebook seed phase. Sidebar says downloaded people are not seed cards

ASP is neither, so they are played
Yet again, where in the Glossary or the Rulebook is that stated?

Please show me. (I have not found a section where that is explicetly covered.)
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By Dukat (Andreas Rheinländer)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
1E German National Runner-Up 2024
#561054
That does not cover it ...
Reporting a card is synonymous with playing a card. Any personnel, ship, or Equipment card "played" by any means (e.g., normal card play, Devidian Door, downloading into play) is "reporting for duty." Any action that may or must take place upon reporting takes place at the time of play.
It say 'downloading into play'.

So let's have a look at what 'in play' means ...
A card is "in play" if it:

has entered play (that is, it was played, was not nullified, and was not discarded as part of its results); or
There is no definition of what 'enters play' actually means and WHEN a card can 'enter play', meaning during which phase - and, if cards that were downloaded during seed phase cound as 'enter play' or not.

The term play is not defined.

I would argue that 'in play' means anything from the beginning of the first turn of any player and not before, because there is no play enviroment before that (because it is still in progress to be set up); yet, that is an assumption because we lack a definition of what 'play' means.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#561056
Dukat wrote: I would argue that 'in play' means anything from the beginning of the first turn of any player and not before, because there is no play enviroment before that (because it is still in progress to be set up); yet, that is an assumption because we lack a definition of what 'play' means.
Cards that are seeded (face-up) are most definitely in play. Just a few examples of cards that make no sense otherwise (there are many more):

Kolinahr makes reference to Protect the Timeline being in play -- and this card only seeds.

Preserver Obelisk seeds, but makes reference to personnel already "in play."

Mysterious Orb can relocate to anywhere "in play"; since missions are seeded, under your proposed definition they are not valid destinations for Mysterious Orb.

Edit: and "in play" is defined in great detail. There's a whole glossary entry.
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Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
 - Online OP Coordinator
 -  
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#561058
Dukat wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:29 am That does not cover it ...
Reporting a card is synonymous with playing a card. Any personnel, ship, or Equipment card "played" by any means (e.g., normal card play, Devidian Door, downloading into play) is "reporting for duty." Any action that may or must take place upon reporting takes place at the time of play.
It say 'downloading into play'.

So let's have a look at what 'in play' means ...
A card is "in play" if it:

has entered play (that is, it was played, was not nullified, and was not discarded as part of its results); or
There is no definition of what 'enters play' actually means and WHEN a card can 'enter play', meaning during which phase - and, if cards that were downloaded during seed phase cound as 'enter play' or not.

The term play is not defined.

I would argue that 'in play' means anything from the beginning of the first turn of any player and not before, because there is no play enviroment before that (because it is still in progress to be set up); yet, that is an assumption because we lack a definition of what 'play' means.
I have shown you rules that support my interpretation. Show me one rule that supports your interpretation.
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By Dukat (Andreas Rheinländer)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
1E German National Runner-Up 2024
#561060
I have.
A lack of definition of the term 'play'; see below.

@Rachmaninoff
Same thing: the term 'play' itself is not defined - and the Glossary entry for 'in play' just states that it refers to a card that has 'entered play', without any definition of the term play.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#561065
I think what Dukat is alluding to is "self-referential definitions". Using a word to define that word is generally frowned upon. The glossary / rules have been known to do this in other cases before, but I can't think of one offhand.

Basically, if I ask what it means to "play" a card, it is not enough to answer "it is the act of putting a card 'in play'". Because you go down an infinite loop, there, when I ask what it means to be "in play". Your answer would be, "cards that have been 'played'".
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