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Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
 - Online OP Coordinator
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2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#561067
I understand what he is saying. and sure it isn't great. But there is no inferential definitions that support his interpretations. The lack of a clear definition doesn't mean we make up rules, we go with what the rules support.

Also we have a definition of play for personnel cards. It is reporting them for duty (which is any way they enter play unless persona swapped or seeded under a mission)
Downloading is reporting is playing, so ASP still breaks the cards he doesn't want it to
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#561068
Yep, the intent of the rules is very clear. Downloading is a form of playing a card.

The language of the rules, that needs some work, though. For instance, "Reporting a card is synonymous with playing a card"... That's not what the word "synonym" means. "Reporting" is actually a subset of "playing", not the same. Every card that is "reported" is "played". But not every card that is "played" is "reported". Every card that is "built" is "played", but not every card that is "played" is "built". Etc...
 
 - Beta Quadrant
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#561070
Dukat wrote: I have.
A lack of definition of the term 'play'; see below.
I actually don't see where you have.

You have asserted that there is an ambiguity ("play" is not well-defined), and proposed a definition to resolve the ambiguity ("in play" means starting from the first turn), but you have not provided positive support for your definition from the rules. In this case, the proposed definition directly contradicts the rules ("A card is 'in play' if it ... has been seeded face up"), and there is no self-reference there.

Your first post also suggested that cards downloaded in the seed phase might be considered "downloaded and seeded", as opposed to "played," the other option in the text you quoted. But under "downloading" the Glossary says "if a card allows you to 'download and seed' a card, it is placed under the mission..." AMS downloads don't go under a mission, so they cannot be download-and-seeds. pfti also pointed out the rulebook text that cards downloaded in the seed phase are not seed cards.

I note in passing that the "in play" entry doesn't just say "a card is in play if it has entered play," it goes on to define what it means for a card to enter play (played, not nullified, and not discarded as part of its results) -- but none of that is relevant to the question of whether seed-phase downloads are plays. They unambiguously are:

- Downloads are either plays or download-and-seeds
- Download-and-seeds go under a mission
- AMS downloads do not go under a mission, therefore they are not download-and-seeds
- Therefore they must be plays.
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By Dukat (Andreas Rheinländer)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
1E German National Runner-Up 2024
#561072
JeBuS wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:04 pm Yep, the intent of the rules is very clear. Downloading is a form of playing a card.

The language of the rules, that needs some work, though. For instance, "Reporting a card is synonymous with playing a card"... That's not what the word "synonym" means. "Reporting" is actually a subset of "playing", not the same. Every card that is "reported" is "played". But not every card that is "played" is "reported". Every card that is "built" is "played", but not every card that is "played" is "built". Etc...
Both of your posts are a good way of what I obviously couldn't make anyone understand.
I understand what he is saying. and sure it isn't great. But there is no inferential definitions that support his interpretations. The lack of a clear definition doesn't mean we make up rules, we go with what the rules support.
The infinite loop of explaining one term with another term is not 'rules support', it is a lack of rules.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#561074
If I'm reading this thread correctly, there seems to be general consensus (including from Andreas) that:

(1) This doesn't work.
(2) It shouldn't work.
(3) There are some cards and rules that support claims #1 and #2, but...
(4) ...the rules don't directly and clearly state it in a way that conclusively settles the question.

(4) is something I can fix!

Several of you have now spent a good chunk of the morning looking at this body of rules, so I'd welcome any suggestions for edits to the Glossary / Rulebook to clarify this.
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By Dukat (Andreas Rheinländer)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
1E German National Runner-Up 2024
#561075
In a broader sense, we need a definition of 'play' and 'in play', without saying it is a card that has been played; meaning an actual definition and not a loop going backwards to itself.
Like:
A card is in play if it was seeded (unless an exception, see below) or downloaded during the seed phase. After the seed phase, any card downloaded or put from hand into play legally is also in play. Any card put in the discard play or out-of-play (by any rule or another card) is no longer considered 'in play'.
Exceptions are: dilemmas, artifacts, cards seeded under Cryosattelite, [include all other exceptions].
(Not sure if that is sufficient.)


In particular, add the following line to the list of conditions for a card 'in play':
- has been downloaded during the seed phase
Last edited by Dukat on Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#561076
BCSWowbagger wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:34 pm Several of you have now spent a good chunk of the morning looking at this body of rules, so I'd welcome any suggestions for edits to the Glossary / Rulebook to clarify this.
Beyond replacing the word "synonym"... there's a much bigger ball o' wax there than some simple rewording can accomplish.

Because the real question that everything will come down to is "When is something actually 'in play'?" Easy enough for a noun, generally. I think we can all agree on when those are not in play vs in play.

But... what about Interrupts? Are the "instantaneous" variety ever "in play"? They get "played" via some mechanism, I think we all agree. But... do they "enter play"? And, if they don't "enter play"... what state are they in?

That's a fundamental aspect of the game. And... I can see an argument either way. So, how can I propose to reword rules for "in play" and "enter play", when I don't know if some cards actually are "in play" if they get "played"?
 
 - Beta Quadrant
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#561077
I actually don't think there is an infinite loop here. The word "play" is being used in two distinct senses: "play" as a verb, something happening to a card, and "in play" as an adjective describing the state of a card.

One way that a card can be "in play" is if it has been "played." But whether a card has been "played" or not does not rely on the concept of "in play," it is referring to the "verb-sense" about what happened to the card in the past. For instance, the other rules say that "reporting" is a way of "playing" a card (I agree with JeBuS that "synonymous" is not the right word), that "downloading" is another way, and so forth. Or am I missing something? How does the definition of "played" depend on "in play"?
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Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
 - Online OP Coordinator
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2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#561078
JeBuS wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:50 pm

But... what about Interrupts? Are the "instantaneous" variety ever "in play"? They get "played" via some mechanism, I think we all agree. But... do they "enter play"?

There is a strong implication in the glossary entry for the interrupt that if it does not have a specific target it plays on the table and is discarded when it resolves.
So I think you can argue that
any card that goes from your hand or a non-seed deck to the table, or onto another card, is played. Such a card is in-play until a rule or card removes it from the table or another card.

Each card type has specific conditions for when it may be played and when it leaves play. Downloading or specific card text may supercede these conditions
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#561079
Rachmaninoff wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:59 pm I actually don't think there is an infinite loop here. The word "play" is being used in two distinct senses: "play" as a verb, something happening to a card, and "in play" as an adjective describing the state of a card.

One way that a card can be "in play" is if it has been "played." But whether a card has been "played" or not does not rely on the concept of "in play," it is referring to the "verb-sense" about what happened to the card in the past. For instance, the other rules say that "reporting" is a way of "playing" a card (I agree with JeBuS that "synonymous" is not the right word), that "downloading" is another way, and so forth. Or am I missing something? How does the definition of "played" depend on "in play"?
"To play a card is to..." - fill in the blank.
"A card is in play if it has been played and..." - fill in the blank.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
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#561080
JeBuS wrote: But... what about Interrupts? Are the "instantaneous" variety ever "in play"? They get "played" via some mechanism, I think we all agree. But... do they "enter play"? And, if they don't "enter play"... what state are they in?
I feel like I'm missing something in this thread. The glossary entry on "in play" says
A card is "in play" if it:
- has entered play (that is, it was played, was not nullified, and was not discarded as part of its results); or
- has been seeded face up; or
- has been exchanged for a card already in play; or
- has been activated by turning it face up (hidden agendas); or
- has been encountered like a dilemma or during a Q-Flash; or
- has been earned or acquired like an artifact (unless placed in the hand for later play);
AND it has not left play.
The entry immediately defines "entered play" as "played, not nullified, and not discarded as part of its results." An "instantaneous" interrupt is discarded as part of its results, so it is never "in play."
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#561081
pfti wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:00 pm
JeBuS wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:50 pm

But... what about Interrupts? Are the "instantaneous" variety ever "in play"? They get "played" via some mechanism, I think we all agree. But... do they "enter play"?

There is a strong implication in the glossary entry for the interrupt that if it does not have a specific target it plays on the table and is discarded when it resolves.
So I think you can argue that
any card that goes from your hand or a non-seed deck to the table, or onto another card, is played. Such a card is in-play until a rule or card removes it from the table or another card.

Each card type has specific conditions for when it may be played and when it leaves play. Downloading or specific card text may supercede these conditions
I agree, you could argue that.
But, you could also argue that if it's not written in the rules, it's not so. (Remember Vic downloading missions?) [See, rach has made my point by coming to the opposite conclusion.]
Last edited by JeBuS on Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
 - Online OP Coordinator
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2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#561082
That is why i also offered rules text that sovles the problems. Pointing at what you see as a gap isn't that useful unless you also take action to close the gap
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#561083
pfti wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:06 pm That is why i also offered rules text that sovles the problems. Pointing at what you see as a gap isn't that useful unless you also take action to close the gap
Notice that rachmaninoff came to the opposite conclusion.

I'm taking action by discussing it with other folks. ;)
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#561084
Rachmaninoff wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:02 pm
JeBuS wrote: But... what about Interrupts? Are the "instantaneous" variety ever "in play"? They get "played" via some mechanism, I think we all agree. But... do they "enter play"? And, if they don't "enter play"... what state are they in?
I feel like I'm missing something in this thread. The glossary entry on "in play" says
A card is "in play" if it:
- has entered play (that is, it was played, was not nullified, and was not discarded as part of its results); or
- has been seeded face up; or
- has been exchanged for a card already in play; or
- has been activated by turning it face up (hidden agendas); or
- has been encountered like a dilemma or during a Q-Flash; or
- has been earned or acquired like an artifact (unless placed in the hand for later play);
AND it has not left play.
The entry immediately defines "entered play" as "played, not nullified, and not discarded as part of its results." An "instantaneous" interrupt is discarded as part of its results, so it is never "in play."
OK, so let me ask you this. How do you "play" an Interrupt?
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