User avatar
 
By Dukat (Andreas Rheinländer)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
1E German National Runner-Up 2024
#561321
Hi guys,

quick question about Paxan "Wormhole". When does the relocation happen? I assume 'at any time' (without suspending play, of course), is that correct?

I would even assume during a mission attempt, let's say when a ship is being downloaded using Scout Encounter, but the owner of the dilemma decides to flee instead of fight?


There is no Glossary entry for the card.
User avatar
Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
 - Online OP Coordinator
 -  
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#561324
I always assumed it happened at suspends play speed (no reason for this)
So if a dilemma removes your android, ship goes bye before it resolves.

Again, I have zero rules basis for this
User avatar
Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
 - Online OP Coordinator
 -  
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#561327
The only deleted glossary text related to Paxan was under the old Wormhole entry
Also, a ship wormholed to the
location of a hazard such as a Borg Ship
dilemma or Paxan “Wormhole” need not stop
at that location and can continue to move
away from the hazard (RANGE permitting).
But that doesn't answer any of our questions since that ship has never conceptually been at the location
User avatar
 
By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#561329
No strong rules basis for this, but I view it as a mandatory action. That means it gets resolved at the first opportunity to take an action.

So in Dukat's example with Scout Encounter, the opponent could download a scout vessel with no Android and either move away or initiate battle. In the case of the former, the mission text is irrelevant as the Scout vessel is no longer there. In the case of the latter, once the battle has resolved, which also presumably would resolve the dilemma and the mission attempt actions, then the text would kick in and the attempting player could bounce the Scout vessel wherever.
User avatar
First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#561333
Armus wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:30 pm No strong rules basis for this, but I view it as a mandatory action. That means it gets resolved at the first opportunity to take an action.

So in Dukat's example with Scout Encounter, the opponent could download a scout vessel with no Android and either move away or initiate battle. In the case of the former, the mission text is irrelevant as the Scout vessel is no longer there. In the case of the latter, once the battle has resolved, which also presumably would resolve the dilemma and the mission attempt actions, then the text would kick in and the attempting player could bounce the Scout vessel wherever.
That's my read of it as well - don't see anything that would indicate it would jump in mid-resolution of a dilemma.
User avatar
First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#561353
I agree it's an action!

I also agree it's a mandatory action.

I don't think it follows that it must be resolved at the first opportunity (actions - required is not entirely clear about this, but suggests some flexibility), although pretty much every player on Earth will want to resolve it at the first opportunity.

So the practical question is: what's the first opportunity? And there, again, I agree with Armus: not during the mission attempt, but immediately after the mission attempt.

(A smart player might respond, "But, if that's correct, then why does Cytherians immediately end the mission attempt, essentially suspending play with its mandatory action?" The answer to that appears to be, "Because the Glossary entry for Cytherians says so." Going solely off the gametext of Cytherians and the general action rules, I would rule that Cytherians does not end the mission attempt... but the Glossary says it does, so it does, regardless of the general rules.)
User avatar
 
By Dukat (Andreas Rheinländer)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
1E German National Runner-Up 2024
#561378
So the practical question is: what's the first opportunity? And there, again, I agree with Armus: not during the mission attempt, but immediately after the mission attempt.
The first opportunity is, when any ship without an android arrives at the location, whether during a mission attempt or not.

I would think that the moment any ship arrives, for whatever reason, the action is triggered - not because it suspends play, but because it is mandatory.


A lot of things can actually happen during a mission attempt, without interfering with it. For example various dilemmas allow to download personnel and initiate personnel battle. That battle takes place WHILE the dilemma is still resolving - with all the stuff that can happen related to personnel battle. Why? Because the battle must resolve and THEN the dilemma is discarded (e.g. Sleeper Trap specifically says 'discard dilemma', so the dilemma is still being revealed and the mission attempt is still going on while personnel battle takes place - the mission attempt is ended only after the battle is concluded and the dilemma discarded, because of all personnel being stopped). Remember how many card can be played and activated during personnel battle and all of that is possible during the mission attempt, because the personnel battle is taking place during one.

Therefore, I would not categorically argue that things like the Paxan Wormhole cannot happen during a mission attempt, as all the battle related dilemmas provide examples to the contrary.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#561385
As I read "actions - required", mandatory actions do not need to be taken immediately -- for instance, moving your ship with Cytherians already on it does not have to be the first action you take in your turn, and you don't have to attempt Samaritan Snare immediately -- even though most people play it that way, the Glossary is pretty clear on this. (Relevant text: "You may not end your execute orders step until all your ships and personnel have completed all actions they are required and able to complete.")

When encountered, Cytherians will end the current attempt because the ship "must do nothing but" move, and attempting a mission is something other than moving. So the attempt ends right away, but you don't have to move it immediately, just sometime before the end of your execute orders step. What's happening rules-wise is that the fourth paragraph of "actions - required" essentially says text like "must do nothing but move" also implies the text "attempt ends" which appears explicitly on some other dilemmas.

Paxan is less clear to me. The "actions - required" entry is mainly written about mandatory actions affecting you on your turn (must move, must attempt, etc.), but Paxan is an action affecting your opponent. I see a few ways to spin this -- I don't have a strong opinion (yet), but here are some possibilities:

-It falls under "actions - required"... but by the letter of this section all that means is that you have to do it before the end of your execute orders step (which may be a while if it isn't your turn yet!) This sounds odd, and furthermore it doesn't follow the usual wording of required actions ("must" or "must do nothing but"), so perhaps this is not the right reading.

-There is an implied "may," so it is a voluntary action and you have to wait until your turn. I find this unlikely.

-It is a continuous effect, like attribute modifiers or special skills that unconditionally nullify things like Goran'Agar (see "use (skills)", second paragraph), because there is no "may" text. In this case, Paxan's text automatically applies at any time -- just like how your Goran'Agar will nullify the Hippocratic Oath I'm encountering if he's on the same planet, even though it's not your turn -- outside of the normal action timing. In this case the relocation is immediate, as soon as there is no android on your ship, the text applies and I can move it. The odd thing here is that I'm using Glossary text about using skills on personnel and applying it to mission gametext.

The third option feels most right to me, but I'm not super confident. Maybe there are other possibilities.
1EFQ: Game of two halves

Honestly, I don’t think I’ve re[…]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!

Happy birthday to @Takket ! :D :thumbsup: […]

Opponents turn

Remodulation

It started in mid-2013. At that time it became sta[…]