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By Enabran
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2E Austrian National Second Runner-Up 2022
#561899
No

The Glossary says:
Selecting, Adding, Doubling, and Sharing Skills

When a card allows you to select (e.g., K'chiQ, Lal, Reflection Therapy, Frame of Mind), add (e.g.,Vulcan Mindmeld), double (e.g., Ishka), or share (e.g., Interlink Drone) personnel skills, you may select, add, double, or share only regular skills.
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By geraldkw
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#567625
geraldkw wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:17 pm
Dukat wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:42 am Hi guys,

Temporal Benefactor says that the personnel named gain the benefactor's skills.

Does that include special downloads? After all, technically, they are skills (special skills).
I had the same question and feel like it would be best if this could be fixed on the card not depend on the glossary.
This is from someone who reads the glossary for fun.
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#567632
geraldkw wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:17 pm I had the same question and feel like it would be best if this could be fixed on the card not depend on the glossary.
The default rule for gaining skills is you *only* get regular skills, never special ones. If we wrote it on this card, then by implication Vulcan Mindmeld *would* add special skills (because Benefactor specifies only regular skills and Mindmeld doesn't, so obviously Mindmeld must give you everything, right?). And then we could move on to Distribution Node - since *it* doesn't specify that you can only gain "regular" skills, I can discard a drone to gain "You win the game." as a skill, right?

And so on.
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By geraldkw
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#567633
AllenGould wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 5:15 pm
geraldkw wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:17 pm I had the same question and feel like it would be best if this could be fixed on the card not depend on the glossary.
The default rule for gaining skills is you *only* get regular skills, never special ones. If we wrote it on this card, then by implication Vulcan Mindmeld *would* add special skills (because Benefactor specifies only regular skills and Mindmeld doesn't, so obviously Mindmeld must give you everything, right?). And then we could move on to Distribution Node - since *it* doesn't specify that you can only gain "regular" skills, I can discard a drone to gain "You win the game." as a skill, right?

And so on.
OK, sure.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
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#567636
AllenGould wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 5:15 pm
geraldkw wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:17 pm I had the same question and feel like it would be best if this could be fixed on the card not depend on the glossary.
The default rule for gaining skills is you *only* get regular skills, never special ones. If we wrote it on this card, then by implication Vulcan Mindmeld *would* add special skills (because Benefactor specifies only regular skills and Mindmeld doesn't, so obviously Mindmeld must give you everything, right?). And then we could move on to Distribution Node - since *it* doesn't specify that you can only gain "regular" skills, I can discard a drone to gain "You win the game." as a skill, right?

And so on.
So here's the thing.

I was about to come here and point and laugh at this thread, and say "*of COURSE* it's only regular skills. OBVIOUSLY! Lol Newbz!"

But here's the thing: I can't do that, because it ISN'T obvious.

It USED TO BE obvious, as the Pre-errata version specified *regular skills* which are clearly defined in the glossary, but for whatever reason (I'm guessing word economy), it got shortened to just *skills* which is all-encompassing.

Now, about that word *gain* ... the glossary appears to be silent on the term.

Here's what is in the glossary:
Selecting, Adding, Doubling, and Sharing Skills wrote:When a card allows you to select (e.g., K'chiQ, Lal, Reflection Therapy, Frame of Mind), add (e.g.,Vulcan Mindmeld), double (e.g., Ishka), or share (e.g., Interlink Drone) personnel skills, you may select, add, double, or share only regular skills.
So if we go with the assumption that "gain" skills is equivalent to "add" skills, then the glossary entry would answer the question: regular skills only.

However, I think some term normalization would be in order, either adding "gain" to the list of magic words, or tweaking the wording on Temporal Benefactor (and Vulcan Mindmeld) to say "add" instead of "gain".

:twocents:

PS: The Borg stuff isn't a good comparison here because the glossary calls out Borg skill Sharing in its own entry and clearly states regular skills only can be shared.
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
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#567638
Standardizing on "gain" vs. "add" is something I've wanted to do for a while, but I haven't had the chance (sorry) to do the necessary research.

Which one is used more in this context? Which one has older precedents? Does anyone know? Because if so I can just outsource the research. :)
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By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
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#567661
BCSWowbagger wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 5:52 pm Standardizing on "gain" vs. "add" is something I've wanted to do for a while, but I haven't had the chance (sorry) to do the necessary research.

Which one is used more in this context? Which one has older precedents? Does anyone know? Because if so I can just outsource the research. :)
I'll do some research...

61 cards use the term gain(s) in the sense that is relevant to this discussion.

Of those 61, 32 are not really in need of any sort of clarification because the card tells you exactly what is gained. For instance Mot's Advice tells you your personnel gains Barbering. That's is. Another example, Vantika's Neural Pathways and Treachery x2.

This is almost always a personnel but ships can also "gain" equipment, such as Grappler: Shuttlepod Retrieval and Tractor Beam

Vulcan Database let's a ship gain a skill as specified on the card.

14 cards cause a gain of something other than a skill. Example: Earn Your Rank gains staffing icons. Alliance with the Son'a gains [DS9] .

2 cards, Consume Resources and Consume: Technology allows the gain of "non-intelligence skills in mission requirements." Those will always be regular skills, so that's not really relevant to this topic.

3 cards specifically say you gain a REGULAR skill. Examples:

Comfort Women:
The Book
The Great Teacher

This seems redundant because the Glossary says:
When selecting skills for the Borg Queen, K'chiQ, Frame of Mind, etc., valid choices include any personnel type and any regular skill that exists in the game.
So those cards don't need to tell me to select a regular skills, because the glossary already says selected skills must be regular skills.

6 cards allow me to select a skill without specifying it has to be a regular skill (which, as mentioned already, is not necessary since the glossary already says selected skills must be regular skills).

Distribution Node
Dominion Hierarchy
Cluttering Irrelevancies
Not Programmed to Respond
Sucking Up to the Boss
Oran

The remaining 4 cards tell you to gain skills in some manner, besides selecting, without specifically saying whether those skills are only regular skill(s) or include any special skills. I'd call these cards "ambiguous". Those cards are:

Temporal Benefactor
Vulcan Mindmeld
Impersonate Captive (doesn't actually say "gains" but that the Founder's skills change to match captive's.)
Excalbian Kahless


Which came first, the gain or the add? Well, Vulcan Mindmeld originally said add, and clearly fell into the glossary definition of add only regular skills, until it was errataed. Impersonate Captive is the only other Decipher era card on the list of 4 "ambiguous" cards but as I said that one is kind of an oddball and may need its own separate clarification. Ironically the Glossary explicitly says that for Impersonate Captive, that the Founder loses ALL their skills when impersonating, including special skills, but it silent on whether the founder gains special skills from the captive.

"Add" has been used since Premier on the pre-errata Vulcan Mindmeld and appears as far back, otherwise, as AU on Eyes In the Dark.

While "add" is clearly defined in the glossary, only 11 cards refer to adding skills.

Examples:
Praetor Neral
Rituals of the Hunt (another oddball that says regular skills when it seems it doesn't have to)
Vulcan PADD
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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
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#567664
BCSWowbagger wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 5:52 pm Standardizing on "gain" vs. "add" is something I've wanted to do for a while, but I haven't had the chance (sorry) to do the necessary research.

Which one is used more in this context? Which one has older precedents? Does anyone know? Because if so I can just outsource the research. :)
Earliest "Gains" I can find is defensive measure and neural pathways from DS9.
Earliest "Adds (Skill)" I can find is actually Classic Type II Phaser from TWT.
Then there's Tricorder and its ilk from Premier, DS9 and Voyager which use "Gives all Blah Peeps the extra skill of" instead.

Edit: yeah, Mot's Advice and Vulcan Mindmeld definitely didn't make it onto my quick and dirty search. Even though I read both of them while I was doing the search. Also, it took me more than half a hour to realize I cross posted here.
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
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Community Contributor
#568138
I forgot to thank you all for that very useful research! Very useful indeed.

Thank you very much. Unfortunately, it leaves me much further away from knowing how to term-standardize, but at least now I (and the R.C.) know the facts!
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#568152
Probably an easy data point to collect:

"Each of your MEDICAL-classification personnel gain ENGINEER."
vs
"Each of your MEDICAL-classification personnel adds ENGINEER."
vs
"Add ENGINEER to each of your MEDICAL-classification personnel."

1. Do these sentences do the same thing (in your opinion)?
2. *Should* these sentences do different things (either inherently or because "add" and "gain" shouldn't mean the same thing)?

(My suspicion is that gain vs add got used based on context and how the sentence was constructed - for instance, "Gain ENGINEER to each..." just sounds sillypants.)
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By stressedoutatumc (stressedoutatumc)
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#568193
AllenGould wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:45 pm Probably an easy data point to collect:

"Each of your MEDICAL-classification personnel gain ENGINEER."
vs
"Each of your MEDICAL-classification personnel adds ENGINEER."
vs
"Add ENGINEER to each of your MEDICAL-classification personnel."

1. Do these sentences do the same thing (in your opinion)?
2. *Should* these sentences do different things (either inherently or because "add" and "gain" shouldn't mean the same thing)?

(My suspicion is that gain vs add got used based on context and how the sentence was constructed - for instance, "Gain ENGINEER to each..." just sounds sillypants.)
I wonder if the "gain" vs "add" was also Decipher's way of avoiding an argument about skill dots. Using "adds" in relationship to skill might invite an argument about that person adding a red dot where "gains" just means they ethereally have it. That language didn't have to be careful at the beginning of the game and seemed to get muddied around DS9 where there cards that specifically asked for red dots like Fightin' Words Just a thought.
 
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#568252
AllenGould wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:45 pm "Each of your MEDICAL-classification personnel gain ENGINEER."
vs
"Each of your MEDICAL-classification personnel adds ENGINEER."
vs
"Add ENGINEER to each of your MEDICAL-classification personnel."

1. Do these sentences do the same thing (in your opinion)?
2. *Should* these sentences do different things (either inherently or because "add" and "gain" shouldn't mean the same thing)?
:twocents:

The terms are identical from a gameplay standpoint. Linguistically, the first and third sound right to me and the second is strange. The Medical Tricorder (the source of the new skill) is adding ENGINEER to your personnel (the recipient); the personnel is gaining ENGINEER from the Medical Tricorder. To me, the second sentence implies that the personnel taught themselves to be an ENGINEER on their own, as if they found it within them or something. (Maybe for a card like Driven that would make sense story-wise, but not for equipment.)

But in general, if the card providing the new skill is the subject of the sentence, "add" is the right word, and if the card receiving the skill is the subject, "gain" is better. Or, in analogy form, Add:Gain::Give:Receive.

Again, my :twocents: . A quick scan through the database shows that there are still other terms used (e.g., Medical Kit uses "gives")

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