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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
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#563206
im asking a potential second dead end.

ie. de. is already placed on another mission. second de is revealed. before gametext happens, swap or not?
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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#563208
Ensign Q wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:55 pm im asking a potential second dead end.

ie. de. is already placed on another mission. second de is revealed. before gametext happens, swap or not?
Yeah that works, since you reveal a dilemma before you process its game text, theres a window to swap in before it self-destructs.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#563215
Armus wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:58 pm
Ensign Q wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:55 pm im asking a potential second dead end.

ie. de. is already placed on another mission. second de is revealed. before gametext happens, swap or not?
Yeah that works, since you reveal a dilemma before you process its game text, theres a window to swap in before it self-destructs.
My first impression is that uniqueness would be checked when the dilemma is revealed, before it is encountered.

During the reveal step, dilemmas seem to check themselves to make sure they are legal. ("Am I unique? Am I mis-seed? Am I actually a dilemma?") If yes, the encounter begins, and the dilemma imposes targets/conditions/etc. If no, it's immediately removed. The uniqueness rule doesn't specify this timing, but the mis-seed rule does, and even has a helpful ruling about a similar exchange mechanic:
When a mis-seed is revealed during a mission, scouting, or commandeering attempt, it is placed out-of-play. Mis-seeds are not encountered; for example, a mis-seeded dilemma may not be replaced with a Q-Flash using Beware of Q.
Ensign Q is asking a novel question that the Glossary does not give a clear direct answer to, so I could be wrong about this, but I would think (at first impression), that this general timing principle would apply here, too.

Which means Dead End would be discarded for violating the uniqueness rule when revealed, before Disrupted Continuum can do anything with it.

Which is too bad! It's clever tech.
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
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#563218
I'm going to argue the other side.

If we're talking about two Dead Ends at separate missions, I don't think mis-seed applies. (If they're at the same mission, that rule clearly does and you're a silly tribble for seeding dupes.)

When you hit a second Dead End at a second mission, that's the uniqueness rules, and that section says (bold emphasis mine):
If another copy owned by the same player is encountered (for example, dilemmas), earned (for example, artifacts), or activated (for example, hidden agendas) by any player, that copy is discarded.
Since it only discards at encounter, that means we've already cleared reveal... which means I think you *can* swap it out using "when revealed" effects.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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#563220
BCSWowbagger wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:47 pm
Armus wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:58 pm
Ensign Q wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:55 pm im asking a potential second dead end.

ie. de. is already placed on another mission. second de is revealed. before gametext happens, swap or not?
Yeah that works, since you reveal a dilemma before you process its game text, theres a window to swap in before it self-destructs.
My first impression is that uniqueness would be checked when the dilemma is revealed, before it is encountered.

During the reveal step, dilemmas seem to check themselves to make sure they are legal. ("Am I unique? Am I mis-seed? Am I actually a dilemma?") If yes, the encounter begins, and the dilemma imposes targets/conditions/etc. If no, it's immediately removed. The uniqueness rule doesn't specify this timing, but the mis-seed rule does, and even has a helpful ruling about a similar exchange mechanic:
When a mis-seed is revealed during a mission, scouting, or commandeering attempt, it is placed out-of-play. Mis-seeds are not encountered; for example, a mis-seeded dilemma may not be replaced with a Q-Flash using Beware of Q.
Ensign Q is asking a novel question that the Glossary does not give a clear direct answer to, so I could be wrong about this, but I would think (at first impression), that this general timing principle would apply here, too.

Which means Dead End would be discarded for violating the uniqueness rule when revealed, before Disrupted Continuum can do anything with it.

Which is too bad! It's clever tech.
Far be it for me to disagree with the Rules Master... (I usually end up on the wrong side when I do), but I'm not sure I agree with this interpretation.

The fact that Dead End is unique doesn't mean it becomes a mis-seed when copy 2 is revealed - at least, there's nothing I can see that says it does.

I agree that mis-seeds are not swappable, as clearly stated in the Glossary, but since Dead End is a [Dual] , I don't think it leaves play at this point since it is in fact a legal seed.

I always thought that Unique/Not Duplicatable was checked at the start of the Encounter phase, as it's part of the dilemma's text.

To apply the mis-seed logic here isn't necessarily a logically sound extension of that particular glossary entry.

If anything this is probably something that Rules should look to clarify in the dilemma encounter section of the glossary, because I think EQ is asking a fair question with an at-best-ambiguous answer.
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#563229
I certainly concur that it's a fair matter for discussion, that I'm by no means definitely right, and that the rules should give a clearer answer on this.

Whether it merits quick resolution or should be rolled into the action timing overhaul Rules is already working on, I'm not sure, but I'm going to put it on the Rules discussion agenda for next month and we'll see what they say.
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By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#563230
Cards that are legally seeded do not become mis-seeds due to the gamestate changing. Mis-seed has a very specific set of meanings, and 'unique' or 'non-duplicatable' do not have a role in mis-seed.

It is only when the 2nd copy of Dead End tries to resolve, to be placed on a mission, that it gets discarded because of uniqueness. The uniqueness rule is what is doing the discarding. And in order for that to happen, the card has to be encountered. For a dilemma, that comes after reveal.
Glossary: encountered wrote:A dilemma is not considered to be encountered if it is a unique dilemma which is discarded because another copy is already in play (e.g., Dead End). See unique and universal.
So, if the 2nd copy is revealed, it can be replaced.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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#563231
BCSWowbagger wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:17 pm I certainly concur that it's a fair matter for discussion, that I'm by no means definitely right, and that the rules should give a clearer answer on this.

Whether it merits quick resolution or should be rolled into the action timing overhaul Rules is already working on, I'm not sure, but I'm going to put it on the Rules discussion agenda for next month and we'll see what they say.
Fair point, sir.

Until and unless that happens, as the Director of the online Chair's Challenge starting Worlds Weekend, I rule that for purposes of that event (and ONLY that event), Unique/Not Duplicatable are checked as part of the Encounter step, not the Reveal Step, so it is possible to swap a duplicate Dead End (or a legally seeded Whale Probe) with Disrupted Continuum in response to the duplicate being revealed.

There you go, @Ensign Q, bring the noise! :cheersL:
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
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#563234
Armus wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:38 pm
BCSWowbagger wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:17 pm I certainly concur that it's a fair matter for discussion, that I'm by no means definitely right, and that the rules should give a clearer answer on this.

Whether it merits quick resolution or should be rolled into the action timing overhaul Rules is already working on, I'm not sure, but I'm going to put it on the Rules discussion agenda for next month and we'll see what they say.
Fair point, sir.

Until and unless that happens, as the Director of the online Chair's Challenge starting Worlds Weekend, I rule that for purposes of that event (and ONLY that event), Unique/Not Duplicatable are checked as part of the Encounter step, not the Reveal Step, so it is possible to swap a duplicate Dead End (or a legally seeded Whale Probe) with Disrupted Continuum in response to the duplicate being revealed.

There you go, @Ensign Q, bring the noise! :cheersL:
love you man
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#563237
I think my argument's been misunderstood. I'm not saying that a unique card becomes a mis-seed if there's another copy in play. I agree with you all that that's silly.

I'm saying that:

1. Introducing a card to the game state, by whatever means, always involves a legality check. For card plays and other actions, this happens during initiation, before targets are chosen or conditions met. This has always been floating around the rules as an assumption, but was formally clarified in the March 2009 CRD.

(For example, if you try to play M-5 Computer, but already have another copy of it in play, the play fails ab initio, your normal card play is not spent, and it can never even be Kevin Uxbridge'd, because the play was illegal from the start.)

2. There are many legality checks. One legality check is the uniqueness check. Another legality check is the mis-seed check.

3. The rules do not clearly state when legality checks for dilemmas occur: during the reveal step? Or at the start of the encounter step? The rules are genuinely ambiguous on this point.

4. ...but the rules do tell us when one of the legality checks occurs: mis-seeds are checked during the revealed step.

5. Therefore, it is reasonable to think that, because the uniqueness check is analogous to the mis-seed check (because they are both legality checks), it is most likely that the uniqueness check occurs at the same time, and in the same way, as the mis-seed check.

That's my argument. It's not that uniqueness violation turns a card into a mis-seed. It's that the rules have a hole. They don't tell us when dilemma legality checks are in general... but they do tell us, very clearly, when one type of legality check occurs. It is therefore probable that other legality checks occur at the same time (which is the reveal step).

A few other points:

A. We know that uniqueness is not checked at resolution (when placed on the mission), as a couple comments have suggested. If that were true, then Dead End would have its effect before uniqueness violation causes it to be discarded -- it wouldn't stay on the mission, but would stop the away team. This, I think, we can definitely rule out.

B. Allen notes a passage in the Glossary where the rules refer to uniqueness being checked at encounter-time rather than reveal-time. I think that's the strongest argument against my position. However, it is worth remembering that the "dilemmas revealed" step was only formally defined in 2018, and we hadn't even clarified that uniqueness checking is a legality check until that March 2009 CRD. The passage Allen quotes was written in 1999 (I'm not looking up the month). I think it's reasonable to surmise that Decipher wrote "encountered" here because they literally lacked the vocabulary or the understanding of the timing rules to write anything else, and nobody thought to update it.

C. It would be at least a little bit odd to do legality checks for dilemmas at different times, wouldn't it? Legality checks for normal cards all happen at the same time.

D. Actions - Step 1: Initiation is divided into four sub-steps: declaration, legality, targets, costs. Dilemma Reveal unambiguously corresponds to the declaration step. Dilemma Encounter unambiguously corresponds to the targets & costs step. It's unclear whether legality checks are part of Reveals or Encounters... but, even leaving aside everything about mis-seeds, reading over the steps again, doesn't it just feel like the Reveals step is the "cleaner" place to check legality?

P.S. With Worlds two weeks away, should Rules bluetext this? (One way or the other?)
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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#563240
Here's my counterpoint: The text box is what provides the unique/not duplicatable trait.

The Reveal Step was created because people didn't like that they could pass a dilemma then have it swapped out for a Q Flash with Beware of Q. As such, you have to decide to swap before you start reading game text (at least that's how I've always understood it). Since Unique/Not Duplicatable is game text, it seems to me that the extra step of dilemma Reveal does in fact provide a window to swap that didn't previously exist when all there was was the Encounter step.

Sauce for the Goose, Mr. Saavik...
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#563242
Armus wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:12 pm Here's my counterpoint: The text box is what provides the unique/not duplicatable trait.

The Reveal Step was created because people didn't like that they could pass a dilemma then have it swapped out for a Q Flash with Beware of Q. As such, you have to decide to swap before you start reading game text (at least that's how I've always understood it). Since Unique/Not Duplicatable is game text, it seems to me that the extra step of dilemma Reveal does in fact provide a window to swap that didn't previously exist when all there was was the Encounter step.

Sauce for the Goose, Mr. Saavik...
An admirably self-consistent theory of the case!

The thing that bothers me about it is that it isn't how unique/universal works in any other context. In an ordinary card play (say, the Inner Light played from hand), uniqueness is checked before any other gametext is read. Making that check happen at the same time as other gametext is read, but only for dilemmas, seems (to me) like a weird exception.

You're the T.D. and I haven't bluetexted, though, so what you say goes for your event! (Until/unless there's a bluetext, and I would expect a swift decision on that.)
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