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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
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Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#566520
eberlems wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:24 am Q's Tent: Civil War Would that nean no [Ref] dl since those are face up?
Face up under the Doorway (QT:CW) is not the same as face up on the doorway (previously-drawn Q-Flash cards).

Under [Door] is part of the side deck, whether face up or down (as listed on QT:CW), but on [Door] are awaiting reshuffling and not part of the side deck.
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By Enabran
 - Beta Quadrant
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2E Austrian National Second Runner-Up 2022
#566542
BCSWowbagger wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:06 pm Yes, and within the foreseeable future. Tribbles too.
oh please NO! .... One is enough.
BCSWowbagger wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:06 pm The goal is to remove complexity, not add it. That means cards should say what they do, without additional rules baggage.
Ok, I am dumb now and do exactly what the new Flash is telling me: I start a game with a Q-Flash but no cards in it. Zero is any number. We start the game. After the Seed phase I start to read the card. "blah bla blah... when side deck empty, shuffle to replenish it." Oh my deck is empty, I start to shuffle. Oh my deck is empty, I start to shuffle. Oh my deck is empty, I start to shuffle. Oh my deck is empty, I start to shuffle... Time out
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#566544
Enabran wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:01 pm Ok, I am dumb now and do exactly what the new Flash is telling me: I start a game with a Q-Flash but no cards in it. Zero is any number. We start the game. After the Seed phase I start to read the card. "blah bla blah... when side deck empty, shuffle to replenish it." Oh my deck is empty, I start to shuffle. Oh my deck is empty, I start to shuffle. Oh my deck is empty, I start to shuffle. Oh my deck is empty, I start to shuffle... Time out
The TD would ding you for stalling here, since you're not actually accomplishing anything.

Alternately, I'd file it under "the game broke, you broke it, thus you take the loss".

(Aside to the OP folks - the guide doesn't agree with itself on whether stalling is a level 1 or 2 offense.)
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By ShipNerd
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#566567
Downloading all the time might be boring for both sides.

Yet in cases of dilemmas / [Q] cards, its an interesting interaction. One of the things [2E] did to improve the game. And it does not take long. So as long as its balanced, -> that's cool. 8)
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By patrick (Patrick Weijers)
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#566568
I always assumed the face-up cards (and now "the cards on top") were just meant to be a kind of discard pile without having an entire different location with a new pile.

Since you normally can't download from the discard pile, I just assumed it worked the same for the side-deck-discard-piles...
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#566569
patrick wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:35 am I always assumed the face-up cards (and now "the cards on top") were just meant to be a kind of discard pile without having an entire different location with a new pile.
That's been my thought of it as well. I expect it's because calling it a discard pile suddenly makes a pile of *other* cards work weird.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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#566570
Yeah this is so much clunkier than it needs to be. The 2e dilemma pile was based on the 1e side decks and downloading from there is so much more straightforward.

This strikes me as one of those times when 1e should've borrowed a page from 2e, because the latter just works.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
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#566571
SirDan wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:18 am Downloading a specific [Q] card can be huge. I'm happy that there's a bit of risk involved.
The only cards that download [Q] cards are a dilemma with specific requirements (over the weekend I had my Q cracked every time it was hit), and an interrupt that isn't immune to any counters.

Given how many answers there are to those two things already in the game, I'd submit that there's already risk baked into the mechanic. Cutting off access to the whole deck reduces the benefit and calls into question whether or not the benefit is even worth the risk.

Q Flash barely sees play as it is... why make it harder than it needs to be to pull shenanigans?

:?
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By SirDan (Dan Hamman)
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ibbles  Trek Masters Tribbles Champion 2023
#566576
Armus wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:01 pmQ Flash barely sees play as it is... why make it harder than it needs to be to pull shenanigans?
Conservatism. Knowing that more [Q] is on the horizon, I'm firmly on board with incremental improvements to an entire mechanic that can blow up if boosted too much. Honestly, I don't think it should be included in more than a quarter of decks. That may be too high. It should remain a fringe strategy, that pops up every once in a while, and is random and wacky. Downloading removes some of the randomness. Seeing it in every competitive deck removes the wacky.

So, no. Even with all the counters you listed, it should have a chance to fail. If you want to make it a sure thing, 1) use the download before a Flash happens and takes some cards out, or 2) make your side deck bigger and add more copies so you can be pretty sure it will still contain what you need. I like both of these tradeoffs as restrictions.
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#566577
Armus wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:51 am Yeah this is so much clunkier than it needs to be. The 2e dilemma pile was based on the 1e side decks and downloading from there is so much more straightforward.

This strikes me as one of those times when 1e should've borrowed a page from 2e, because the latter just works.
I'm not sure that's true - I searched through the 2E rulebook this morning and I don't see a rule saying you can search through the discards. (Or much of any rule at all on that front.)
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By eberlems
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2E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
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#566578
AllenGould wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:08 pm
Armus wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:51 am Yeah this is so much clunkier than it needs to be. The 2e dilemma pile was based on the 1e side decks and downloading from there is so much more straightforward.

This strikes me as one of those times when 1e should've borrowed a page from 2e, because the latter just works.
I'm not sure that's true - I searched through the 2E rulebook this morning and I don't see a rule saying you can search through the discards. (Or much of any rule at all on that front.)
2E Rulebook p17 wrote:discarding – Discard piles are kept face-up, and cards are discarded one
at a time so all players can see what is being discarded. The order of
your discard pile is irrelevant.
Any player may examine any discard pile at any time. Whenever you
take a card from your discard pile, you must reveal that card to all
players so they can verify that the correct card was taken. ...
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
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#566580
AllenGould wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:08 pm
Armus wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:51 am Yeah this is so much clunkier than it needs to be. The 2e dilemma pile was based on the 1e side decks and downloading from there is so much more straightforward.

This strikes me as one of those times when 1e should've borrowed a page from 2e, because the latter just works.
I'm not sure that's true - I searched through the 2E rulebook this morning and I don't see a rule saying you can search through the discards. (Or much of any rule at all on that front.)
Here's the relevant text, from the "facing dilemmas" section:
Any dilemmas your opponent does not choose (or is unable to choose) are returned face up to the bottom of his or her dilemma pile. Any time a player reaches a face up card in his or her dilemma pile, that player shuffles the entire pile and places it face down
That's it. There's one dilemma pile, and it has a face up and face down component. There's no 'discard pile' or similar zone. All dilemmas not in play are in the dilemma pile, period, full stop.

So when you play a card like Uninvited, or Vault of Tomorrow which allows you to "search your dilemma pile", you have access to both the face up and face down parts, and can choose any eligible dilemma, after which you shuffle them back together in one face down pile.

If Q-Flash worked the same way, my 2e brain would be totally ok with it. I would also think that my 1e brain would grok it because I thought that was how Tactic and Tribble downloads worked. And if they don't work that way, then how *do* they work?

As it is, the "understandable, do what the card says" solution leaves me wanting for more intuitiveness. I get that it works as it does, but I don't necessarily *like* that it works as it does.
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