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By WeAreBack
 - Beta Quadrant
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#575914
I'm looking at the various Nor-type Stations -- particularly the universal Nor and Alliance Nor -- (along with the rules and glossary) and trying to figure out what it is about these cards that would prevent a personnel from being present on the station in the absence of any sites being played on the station. Oddly, the glossary merely states that "Stations do not allow reporting, docking, or repairs unless specified by game text on the station or its sites." Personnel being present does not appear to be ruled out.

It's possible that this is an oversight resulting from the fact that, at the time that the Deep Space Nine set was released, there simply wasn't a way to get a personnel card onto the station. Under the old "no beaming" rule for Nors, you couldn't just beam onboard. You also couldn't dock because docking is not specifically permitted by the station card itself, and there was no Multidimensional Transport Device or Orb of Time to let you get aboard in violation of the beaming rules. Maybe you could have used Mysterious Orb to get there, but why would you bother, since you can't do anything and can't leave?

Importantly, there is also another Station-- Tellarite Trading Post -- that does not specify that personnel may report aboard, or be present aboard. But personnel routinely report (using the text of another card, Smuggler's Rendezvous) on this station. The same also be true for Deep Space Station K-7. All players compatible cards may "use" that station but it isn't clearly stated how these cards may "use" the station, or that personnel may be present aboard the station (conceivably, "use" could simply mean ships can dock there, although oddly nothing about an ability to dock is stated on the card either.)

The other stations all either specifically mention reporting or someone being "aboard" (Amargosa Observatory), so it is clear personnel can be aboard without sites.

Of course, there are cards that allow reporting to a "facility" such as Assign Support Personnel or Illegitimate Leader of the Empire without using that facility's game text. In principle shouldn't these be usable at a Nor with no sites unless the rules are updated to specifically say "Stations do not allow reporting, the presence of personnel, docking, or repairs unless specified by game text on the station or its sites"? Likewise, shouldn't a station's controller (or anyone with a Multidimensional Transport Device) be able to beam aboard such a station as the rules are currently worded?

At the very least, if we're going to keep requiring sites even to allow the mere presence of personnel, there should be a clarification in the rulebook, under either Sites or Stations to make this clear specifically for Nors. Something like: "To be present on a Nor, a ship, personnel or equipment card must be at a site."
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Chief Programmer
By eberlems
 - Chief Programmer
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Explorer
2E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E  National Second Runner-Up 2023
#575918
https://www.trekcc.org/op/1e_rulebook/Glossary.php#facility wrote:...Whenever you have personnel or ships aboard (or docked at) a facility, stack them on top of the appropriate site (for a Nor) or underneath the Facility card (for any other facility). ...
For a while Nors had to have some kind of docking site to report anything to a site, but that seems to be history.
https://starshipexcelsior.com/othersite ... 9rules.pdf top of page 5.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#575924
JeBuS wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:11 am I don't see a problem with personnel being aboard a Nor with no sites. It would track with the use of all other non-Nor stations.
:thumbsup:

This is an extreme edge case that exists today only in the realm of theory, which is why (to my knowledge) Rules has never discussed it outside internal threads, but the going theory among Rules today is that a facility or ship with no sites on it functions like a regular facility or ship.

Once you play a site on a facility or ship, all nouns on the facility or ship are considered to be at that site. If there's more than one site, then they can move between the sites (but not back to the "naked" facility or ship). The sites supplant the "naked" facility or ship.

The fact that I keep saying "facility or ship" instead of "Nor" tells you just how far out into the abstract theoretical wilds these discussions have occasionally gotten. :)

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