- Beta Quadrant
 -  
#577081
It looks to me like the rulebook and glossary describe the conditions for infiltration differently.

The rulebook says:
Executing Orders -- Infiltrate wrote: Your personnel who have a diamond-shaped <Baj> <Car> <Dom> <Fed> <Kli> <Rom> <Maq> infiltration icon may infiltrate your opponent's cards if they are compatible with that affiliation (or faction). Such cards may join the opponent's side in one of two ways: by reporting to your opponent's compatible facility, ship, or Away Team as if one of your opponent's cards (you may ignore quadrant restrictions), or by joining an opponent's compatible crew or Away Team where present (even during your opponent's turn).
The glossary says
infiltration icon wrote: Your personnel who has a diamond shaped infiltration icon may infiltrate your opponent's cards, if your opponent has played or seeded face-up a card of that affiliation or faction, in one of two ways:
[li]
[*]It may report to your opponent's side of the table, to a facility (and crew or Away Team, if any) which it will be compatible with when infiltrating (regardless of quadrant); or
[*]It may report for duty normally, and infiltrate later in the game, during either player's turn, if present with an opponent's crew or Away Team which it will be compatible with when infiltrating.
[/li]
If your opponent has not played or seeded face-up a card of that affiliation or faction, you may not infiltrate their cards with that personnel. See faction.
The Glossary has a stipulation that your opponent must have played a card of that affiliation or faction before infiltrating; the Rulebook does not.

If I'm remembering my history correctly, the Rulebook has the original version of the rule. It was changed to the Glossary version when someone figured out that seeding Memory Wipe would let you infiltrate with anybody. Can anyone else confirm this? Or am I missing something else entirely in the rulebook that brings it in line with the glossary?
User avatar
 
By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#577082
also of note... the rulebook section you quoted said you can report your infiltrator "to your opponent's compatible facility, ship, or Away Team".

So I can play an infiltrator directly to their ship??? I've never heard that before. i thought you always had to report to a facility and then board their ship.
User avatar
 
By WeAreBack
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#577086
I believe for reporting to ships the key phrase is "reporting to your opponent's compatible facility, ship, or Away Team as if one of your opponent's cards."

This seems likely to have been inserted to deal with the problem of people playing a [1E-DQ] decks using Home Away From Home and no facility. If you can't report the infiltrator directly to the ship, it's basically impossible for this personnel to infiltrate your opponent's cards at all.

I suppose that means if we ever see the [Holo] infiltrator Reg from "Inside Man", he would likely be able to report to any compatible ship where your opponent has played a Holodeck Door.
User avatar
 
By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#577089
WeAreBack wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:46 pm I believe for reporting to ships the key phrase is "reporting to your opponent's compatible facility, ship, or Away Team as if one of your opponent's cards."

This seems likely to have been inserted to deal with the problem of people playing a [1E-DQ] decks using Home Away From Home and no facility. If you can't report the infiltrator directly to the ship, it's basically impossible for this personnel to infiltrate your opponent's cards at all.

I suppose that means if we ever see the [Holo] infiltrator Reg from "Inside Man", he would likely be able to report to any compatible ship where your opponent has played a Holodeck Door.
So I can burn my opponent's Temporal Micro-Wormholes by reporting an infiltrator to their ship?
User avatar
 
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#577102
Takket wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:17 pm So I can burn my opponent's Temporal Micro-Wormholes by reporting an infiltrator to their ship?
No, because TMW says "you may report", and your opponent is not "you". ;) Also, it's a specific ability that's triggered (you choose to use TMW; it's not "when you play an incompatible personnel discard this to make it compatible"), so it's not something you can force to happen.

(And you can't use your TMW, because it's not your ship.)
User avatar
 
By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#577114
AllenGould wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 11:25 am
Takket wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:17 pm So I can burn my opponent's Temporal Micro-Wormholes by reporting an infiltrator to their ship?
No, because TMW says "you may report", and your opponent is not "you". ;) Also, it's a specific ability that's triggered (you choose to use TMW; it's not "when you play an incompatible personnel discard this to make it compatible"), so it's not something you can force to happen.

(And you can't use your TMW, because it's not your ship.)
Then the HAFH statement above can't be correct either... either I can use my opponent's game text on their cards, or I can't.

Which is it?
User avatar
 
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#577123
Takket wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 5:36 pm Then the HAFH statement above can't be correct either... either I can use my opponent's game text on their cards, or I can't.

Which is it?
You may need to clarify what you're after - infiltration doesn't care about HAFH at all as far as I know.
User avatar
 
By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#577152
AllenGould wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:37 pm
Takket wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 5:36 pm Then the HAFH statement above can't be correct either... either I can use my opponent's game text on their cards, or I can't.

Which is it?
You may need to clarify what you're after - infiltration doesn't care about HAFH at all as far as I know.
Third post in the thread. We Are Back was surmising that the Rulebook says you can report infiltrators to a ship as if an opponent's card to deal with decks using HAFH. I took that as saying that since HAFH grants your opponent the ability to report to a ship, that it does for your infiltrator as well.
User avatar
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#577195
Here's the difference for me: (I admit I am working backwards based off assumed intent and the way I would like it to work, and not a strict interpretation of the wording as is.)


Home Away says "your personnel may report aboard".

TMW says "You may report"

HAFH is essentially turning the ship into a facility, and changing the basic rule structure. The wording is very much like the wording on sites, HQ, and Time Locations.

TMW is giving you a special ability with it's own unique cost, much like a doorway, etc.

That's why I can justify HAFH leafing infiltrators report, but not TMW.


Side note, @BCSWowbagger - has there ever been any thought of offloading some/all of the outpost rules to the outposts? There seems like plenty of room for text.
User avatar
First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
1E World Champion 2021
Architect
Community Contributor
#577198
boromirofborg wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:07 pm Side note, @BCSWowbagger - has there ever been any thought of offloading some/all of the outpost rules to the outposts? There seems like plenty of room for text.
There has!

Our first attempt... struggled:

Image
Seed one at a non-homeworld [FED] mission OR plays at such a mission if your [Fed] ENGINEER there. Compatible cards native to the Alpha Quadrant may report aboard (if Outpost is in its native quadrant). Your compatible ships may dock here (adding 50% of Outpost's SHIELDS to their own). End of each turn, repairs one damage marker (random selection) on each ship docked here. [EDITOR'S NOTE: this is not even the correct repair rule]
That's not to say it would never happen. Arguably, not all of this text strictly needs to be here to do an offload. And Decipher's mass errata of Outposts in August 2000 makes this more feasible from a traditionalism perspective than might otherwise be the case. Note the intriguing idea (suggested by someone not-me) of putting an icon in the left gutter to indicate whether the facility is a space or planet facility -- a major conceptual problem with outposts since the 1996 rule change that declared outposts are space facilities even though all their pictures are planets.

On the other hand, there are more outposts today like Internment Camp 371 that already have quite a bit of text on them.

If it ever happens, I expect it will happen in 2024.
User avatar
 
By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#577207
boromirofborg wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:07 pm Here's the difference for me: (I admit I am working backwards based off assumed intent and the way I would like it to work, and not a strict interpretation of the wording as is.)


Home Away says "your personnel may report aboard".

TMW says "You may report"

HAFH is essentially turning the ship into a facility, and changing the basic rule structure. The wording is very much like the wording on sites, HQ, and Time Locations.

TMW is giving you a special ability with it's own unique cost, much like a doorway, etc.

That's why I can justify HAFH leafing infiltrators report, but not TMW.
No matter how parse those two cards, you are still using gametext on an opponent's card to report a personnel.

Rather than splitting that hair, let me just ask this........

What is the definition of the phase "as if your opponent's cards"?

Does that mean "You can report an infiltrator the same way the RULES allow your opponent to report personnel."

Or

"You can report an infiltrator the same way the RULES and CARDS IN PLAY allow your opponent to report personnel."
User avatar
 
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#577252
Takket wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:31 pm Third post in the thread. We Are Back was surmising that the Rulebook says you can report infiltrators to a ship as if an opponent's card to deal with decks using HAFH. I took that as saying that since HAFH grants your opponent the ability to report to a ship, that it does for your infiltrator as well.
I'm looking at this bit of rules:
Your personnel who have a diamond-shaped <Baj> <Car> <Dom> <Fed> <Kli> <Rom> <Maq> infiltration icon may infiltrate your opponent's cards if they are compatible with that affiliation (or faction). Such cards may join the opponent's side in one of two ways: by reporting to your opponent's compatible facility, ship, or Away Team as if one of your opponent's cards (you may ignore quadrant restrictions), or by joining an opponent's compatible crew or Away Team where present (even during your opponent's turn).
Reading this, I don't think HAFH matters at all. Regardless of whether *I* can report to my ship, *you* can report the infiltrator there using the infiltration rules.

The key is the infiltration compatibility. And that really boils down to "if this guy's infiltration icon is compatible with the crew/AT you're dropping them into". So if they're using a treaty, you could infiltrate with either affiliation. TMW doesn't help because it tells you to report to your ship, and we can squint at the personnel counting as your card, but the ship isn't yours. (And you can't make the opponent use their TMW on your personnel. :) )
User avatar
 
By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#577283
AllenGould wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 12:45 pm
Takket wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:31 pm Third post in the thread. We Are Back was surmising that the Rulebook says you can report infiltrators to a ship as if an opponent's card to deal with decks using HAFH. I took that as saying that since HAFH grants your opponent the ability to report to a ship, that it does for your infiltrator as well.
I'm looking at this bit of rules:
Your personnel who have a diamond-shaped <Baj> <Car> <Dom> <Fed> <Kli> <Rom> <Maq> infiltration icon may infiltrate your opponent's cards if they are compatible with that affiliation (or faction). Such cards may join the opponent's side in one of two ways: by reporting to your opponent's compatible facility, ship, or Away Team as if one of your opponent's cards (you may ignore quadrant restrictions), or by joining an opponent's compatible crew or Away Team where present (even during your opponent's turn).
Reading this, I don't think HAFH matters at all. Regardless of whether *I* can report to my ship, *you* can report the infiltrator there using the infiltration rules.

The key is the infiltration compatibility. And that really boils down to "if this guy's infiltration icon is compatible with the crew/AT you're dropping them into". So if they're using a treaty, you could infiltrate with either affiliation. TMW doesn't help because it tells you to report to your ship, and we can squint at the personnel counting as your card, but the ship isn't yours. (And you can't make the opponent use their TMW on your personnel. :) )
THAT makes a lot more sense. Now let's go wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy back to post number one, and rehash the the rulebook says you can report to a ship but the glossary does not.
User avatar
 
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#577288
Takket wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:12 pm THAT makes a lot more sense. Now let's go wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy back to post number one, and rehash the the rulebook says you can report to a ship but the glossary does not.
Ah.

@BCSWowbagger , I think this is your department? ;)
User avatar
First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
1E World Champion 2021
Architect
Community Contributor
#577289
AllenGould wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:19 pm @BCSWowbagger , I think this is your department? ;)
I've been hiding from this until I have a longer opportunity to take a look at it, but I did put it on a list earlier today. There's not time to review it and fix anything that needs fixing before the 2 June release, but we can presumably square things by 4 July.

General note: if the RB and Glossary conflict, the Glossary wins. (Not sure that's happening here, because, again, haven't had time to take a good long look at it!)
1EFQ: Motion Pictures Moments

My first "Motion Pictures" moment came w[…]

Fading out Tribunal of Q

Hier geht es ein bisschen um das Prinzip. Hier sch[…]

1E Card Database - We need your help!

Is that because he's a super captain? Or is it li[…]

Dual Personnel and Ancestral Vision

What about Dual Personnel and Recruit Mercenari[…]