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By WeAreBack
 - Beta Quadrant
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#578194
So I've definitely realized that to be competitive in the world of General Quarters (or the OTF download) limit, I want to be able to download a personnel not just every one of my own turns, but on every one of my opponent's turns.

But if I'm playing with a dilemma that includes a personnel download, the last thing I want to do is to initiate that download prior to my opponent acknowledging the completion of the execute orders phase. Otherwise my very nice Diplomatic Intervention or Enemies of the State may as well be blank.

Of course, I also don't want to end up missing my opportunity to initiate the download because by the time I try to play the card, it's too late and my opponent's turn is over.

I don't think I have an issue when it comes to [DL] -- they suspend play. My opponent says "I'm ending my turn," and reaches for the draw deck, I say "Not just yet, I'm using my [DL]. OK now you can end your turn with a card draw."

But I'm not sure if I can do this using an interrupt that performs a personnel download because of the valid response restriction:
You may not normally interrupt your own actions, or your opponents' actions, unless you use a card that is a valid response to that action or a card that suspends play.
So basically I guess I'm wondering whether playing an interrupt -- something like I'm a doctor, not a bricklayer or Your place is on the bridge (targeting my damaged ship) -- would be a "valid response" to my opponent attempting to end her or his turn.

If not, could I squeeze the interrupt in between end of turn actions that my opponent chooses to, or is required, to take? So my opponent uses Risk is our Business to draw a card before the normal end of turn card draw, I play my interrupt, then she or he takes a regular end of turn draw. Or I put a [Self] dilemma into play that has an "end of every turn" action, just to be sure I have this end of turn window to play my interrupt?
Last edited by WeAreBack on Sun Jun 05, 2022 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#578195
No other actions may take place between start-of-turn or end-of-turn actions, other than valid responses
I believe [DL] is covered by that as well, since "at any time" excludes start and end of turn phases.

So, if your opponent announced they're ending their turn, it's too late for you to do anything except valid response to such.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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#578196
JeBuS wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 8:34 am
No other actions may take place between start-of-turn or end-of-turn actions, other than valid responses
I believe [DL] is covered by that as well, since "at any time" excludes start and end of turn phases.

So, if your opponent announced they're ending their turn, it's too late for you to do anything except valid response to such.
Nah. You can ALWAYS suspend play.
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By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#578197
Armus wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:56 am
JeBuS wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 8:34 am
No other actions may take place between start-of-turn or end-of-turn actions, other than valid responses
I believe [DL] is covered by that as well, since "at any time" excludes start and end of turn phases.

So, if your opponent announced they're ending their turn, it's too late for you to do anything except valid response to such.
Nah. You can ALWAYS suspend play.
Says who?
Glossary says "A card with a special download icon [DL] allows you to suspend any action at any time". Glossary says 'at any time' can't happen during start or end of turn.

This is one of those cases where a rule replaces the general understanding of the English language phrase.

Heck, the only reason [DL] works in the seed phase of the game is because there's a carve out for it in the rulebook. No such carve out exists for start and end of turn phases, that I've seen.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#578217
I think JeBuS may have found a textual weakness in the Glossary. I'm sort of relieved it was the Glossary's fault, not improper translation into the Rulebook.

I say "may" because I'm not entirely convinced by his argument. [DL] suspends play, and suspends play says:
A card which specifically says it "suspends play" may be played at any time during the play phase (even during your opponent's turn) and may interrupt and temporarily suspend any action. Using a special download icon also suspends play. After the card play or special download has resolved, the suspended action resumes.
This cross-references to actions - interrupting, which says:
You may not interrupt an action by another action, unless the second action:

* is a valid response to the first action or one of its sub-actions; or

* explicitly "suspends play" (according to a card text or rule).
JeBuS's passage correctly note that no action (such as a [DL] ) can take place between end-of-turn actions. But an end-of-turn [DL] does not purport to take place between end-of-turn actions; it instead suspends an end-of-turn action and takes place during it.

(JeBuS also points to a separate passage where the Glossary says that [DL] works at "at any time" speed, which is just not true. The fact that we have at-any-time speed and suspends-play speed that is somehow even faster than at-any-time speed is a longstanding problem, and here we see how it trips up even Decipher rules-writers. "At any time, only this time we actually mean it!" is what that passage seems to want to say. We should probably fix that... or delete it and point players to the relevant section of the Rulebook.)

So I think the [DL] during EOT is fine. :thumbsup:

As for mere interrupts / "at any time" actions, you've just stuck (unless they happen to be valid responses to an end-of-turn actions). You will need to guess when opponent is about to end turn and play your Awaken (or whatever) before opponent declares the start of EOT. Once opponent has declared an EOT action is starting, such as drawing a card, it's too late to play your card (although, in practice, many opponents are quite forgiving of this).

I therefore tend to play my Awakens pretty early in the turn, and I rarely use dilemmas that download personnel in conjunction with other cards that download personnel on opponent's turn.
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By Orbin (James Monsebroten)
 - Delta Quadrant
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#578219
BCSWowbagger wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 5:57 pmSo I think the [DL] during EOT is fine. :thumbsup:
I may be in the minority here, but I thought that nothing other than end of turn or begining of turn actions and responses in those phases. If you can [DL] during the end of turn phase then it weakens Computer Crash.

I once built a deck that seeded 6 Computer Crashes to prevent my opponent from using downloads. We played it as if you couldn't [DL] during end of turn. This helped me prevent an opponent from downloading a Dabo. If you can [DL] during end of turn actions it means that as soon as it counts down you can [DL] and since it's still my end of turn phase I can't flip another Computer Crash (well, I could but it would still count in that end of turn phase and would gain me nothing).

-James M
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Community Contributor
#578221
Orbin wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:07 pm
BCSWowbagger wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 5:57 pmSo I think the [DL] during EOT is fine. :thumbsup:
I may be in the minority here, but I thought that nothing other than end of turn or begining of turn actions and responses in those phases. If you can [DL] during the end of turn phase then it weakens Computer Crash.

I once built a deck that seeded 6 Computer Crashes to prevent my opponent from using downloads. We played it as if you couldn't [DL] during end of turn. This helped me prevent an opponent from downloading a Dabo. If you can [DL] during end of turn actions it means that as soon as it counts down you can [DL] and since it's still my end of turn phase I can't flip another Computer Crash (well, I could but it would still count in that end of turn phase and would gain me nothing).

-James M
Well since another way to look at [DL] / suspends play actions is 'a valid response to anything' it stands to reason that you could [DL] during end of turn by responding to any end of turn action.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#578223
Orbin wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:07 pm I once built a deck that seeded 6 Computer Crashes to prevent my opponent from using downloads. We played it as if you couldn't [DL] during end of turn. This helped me prevent an opponent from downloading a Dabo. If you can [DL] during end of turn actions it means that as soon as it counts down you can [DL] and since it's still my end of turn phase I can't flip another Computer Crash (well, I could but it would still count in that end of turn phase and would gain me nothing).
I don't have anything rules-wise to add to my last, but, for whatever practical reassurance it may be worth, this seems like a fairly edge case for Computer Crash. It gives your opponent a very narrow window in which to do [DL] if you have multiple Computer Crashes lined up. (If it were just one Computer Crash, opponent could just do his DL on his turn.)

But, yeah, I think the rules do indeed support [DL] of Dabo (or other cards) at the end of your turn after your Computer Crash has been discarded, suspending the end-of-turn card draw (or another EOT action) after that action has been initiated. At least he can't use the Dabo right away!

Not blue text so not official.
Well since another way to look at [DL] / suspends play actions is 'a valid response to anything' it stands to reason that you could [DL] during end of turn by responding to any end of turn action.
This would actually be much more restricted than current [DL] rules! At least responses are restricted to the response step! [DL] can hit mid-initiation or mid-resolution for any or no reason!

It would be nice to get there someday. Rules is working on something, but it is hard going (and the ball is in my court right now).
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By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#578224
Orbin wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:07 pm
BCSWowbagger wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 5:57 pmSo I think the [DL] during EOT is fine. :thumbsup:
I may be in the minority here, but I thought that nothing other than end of turn or begining of turn actions and responses in those phases. If you can [DL] during the end of turn phase then it weakens Computer Crash.

I once built a deck that seeded 6 Computer Crashes to prevent my opponent from using downloads. We played it as if you couldn't [DL] during end of turn. This helped me prevent an opponent from downloading a Dabo. If you can [DL] during end of turn actions it means that as soon as it counts down you can [DL] and since it's still my end of turn phase I can't flip another Computer Crash (well, I could but it would still count in that end of turn phase and would gain me nothing).

-James M
I'm pretty sure that it's been long-standing that start of turn and end of turn are inviolable by anything except valid responses. I don't know of a written rule that says [DL] counts as a valid response to anything.
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By nobthehobbit (Daniel Pareja)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Moderator
#578226
JeBuS wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:23 pm
Orbin wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:07 pm
BCSWowbagger wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 5:57 pmSo I think the [DL] during EOT is fine. :thumbsup:
I may be in the minority here, but I thought that nothing other than end of turn or begining of turn actions and responses in those phases. If you can [DL] during the end of turn phase then it weakens Computer Crash.

I once built a deck that seeded 6 Computer Crashes to prevent my opponent from using downloads. We played it as if you couldn't [DL] during end of turn. This helped me prevent an opponent from downloading a Dabo. If you can [DL] during end of turn actions it means that as soon as it counts down you can [DL] and since it's still my end of turn phase I can't flip another Computer Crash (well, I could but it would still count in that end of turn phase and would gain me nothing).

-James M
I'm pretty sure that it's been long-standing that start of turn and end of turn are inviolable by anything except valid responses. I don't know of a written rule that says [DL] counts as a valid response to anything.
It might not be officially part of the rules, but here's some text in a reminder (Actions and Valid Responses) in the Rulebook that indicates that special downloads are not automatically valid responses:
However, if you have Daniels in play anywhere at the location of the battle, you could use his [DL] special download (if valid) to play Out Of Time from your deck or hand.
(bold text in original; italics added by me for emphasis)

Maybe there's something more explicit elsewhere in the Rulebook or Glossary on the point, but that's the first thing I found that seems to be indicative one way or the other on the point.

Also, as an aside, maybe the links to specific cards in the Rulebook or Glossary should go to the card numbers (eg 3669 for Daniels, 3641 or 5582 for Out of Time) instead of the card titles. (Jean-Luc Picard is mentioned and linked to in two places, by name instead of number; both go to his Premiere version even though four other cards with the same title exist.)
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By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#578227
BCSWowbagger wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 5:57 pm (JeBuS also points to a separate passage where the Glossary says that [DL] works at "at any time" speed, which is just not true. The fact that we have at-any-time speed and suspends-play speed that is somehow even faster than at-any-time speed is a longstanding problem, and here we see how it trips up even Decipher rules-writers. "At any time, only this time we actually mean it!" is what that passage seems to want to say. We should probably fix that... or delete it and point players to the relevant section of the Rulebook.)
We don't have a "at any time" speed and a "suspends play speed". Suspends play is an at any time speed, which has the added benefit of being able to pause what's happening. It simply pauses what's happening, it doesn't insert a new window or move faster than anything else.

But no rule says that it overcomes the "at any time" restriction of not happening during the start or end of turn phases. As far as I know, no rule or glossary entry has ever allowed [DL] to occur in those phases.

There's some vague memory I have of back in the day when a ruling had to be made on some sort of shenanigan where a [DL] could occur before a player could take their first action of a turn, and thus caused some big headaches or NPE or something... I don't remember exactly what it was. But, it leads to my opinion that it is 'healthier' for the game if start and end of turn are inviolable.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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#578228
JeBuS wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:23 pm
Orbin wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:07 pm
BCSWowbagger wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 5:57 pmSo I think the [DL] during EOT is fine. :thumbsup:
I may be in the minority here, but I thought that nothing other than end of turn or begining of turn actions and responses in those phases. If you can [DL] during the end of turn phase then it weakens Computer Crash.

I once built a deck that seeded 6 Computer Crashes to prevent my opponent from using downloads. We played it as if you couldn't [DL] during end of turn. This helped me prevent an opponent from downloading a Dabo. If you can [DL] during end of turn actions it means that as soon as it counts down you can [DL] and since it's still my end of turn phase I can't flip another Computer Crash (well, I could but it would still count in that end of turn phase and would gain me nothing).

-James M
I'm pretty sure that it's been long-standing that start of turn and end of turn are inviolable by anything except valid responses. I don't know of a written rule that says [DL] counts as a valid response to anything.
It's not a rule so much as a convention. You can do it any time is my point. That's just one way to conceptualize "you can do this really really whenever the hell you feel like it"
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By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#578230
Armus wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:43 pm It's not a rule so much as a convention. You can do it any time is my point. That's just one way to conceptualize "you can do this really really whenever the hell you feel like it"
99% of the time, that convention is fine, and when explaining it to new folks it gets the idea across well. But it runs afoul of a long-standing rule that start of turn and end of turn are only interruptible by valid responses.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Community Contributor
#578231
JeBuS wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:48 pm
Armus wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:43 pm It's not a rule so much as a convention. You can do it any time is my point. That's just one way to conceptualize "you can do this really really whenever the hell you feel like it"
99% of the time, that convention is fine, and when explaining it to new folks it gets the idea across well. But it runs afoul of a long-standing rule that start of turn and end of turn are only interruptible by valid responses.
That's kind of my point. Suspends play works in those phases, so you can suspend a start of turn action to do a [DL] .

There's no point where that's not a valid play, thus the "valid response to everything" convention.
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By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#578232
Armus wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:50 pm
JeBuS wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:48 pm
Armus wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:43 pm It's not a rule so much as a convention. You can do it any time is my point. That's just one way to conceptualize "you can do this really really whenever the hell you feel like it"
99% of the time, that convention is fine, and when explaining it to new folks it gets the idea across well. But it runs afoul of a long-standing rule that start of turn and end of turn are only interruptible by valid responses.
That's kind of my point. Suspends play works in those phases, so you can suspend a start of turn action to do a [DL] .

There's no point where that's not a valid play, thus the "valid response to everything" convention.
Except... that the rules say that [DL] as an 'at any time' action, cannot occur then. So, the 'valid response to everything' is factually incorrect. And it is my belief, though only through vague memory, that there's a reason [DL] is linked to the language of 'at any time'. Allowing things to occur in those phases of the game is dangerous.
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