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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#578233
To be helpful, in this post I'll try to include all relevant rules (both rulebook and glossary).

Rulebook: The Play Phase
You may not normally interrupt your own actions, or your opponents' actions, unless you use a card that is a valid response to that action or a card that suspends play.
[snip]
If a card is not a valid response to the current action, it cannot be used until after the current action has resolved. [snip] The only exception is cards which state that they suspend play. A card that suspends play (like The Guardian) may interrupt any action.
Rulebook: Playing "At Any Time"
[Int] Interrupts, and several other cards (like Out of Time), play "at any time." You may play them at any time, during any phase of your turn or your opponent's.
[snip]
Even a card that plays (or activates) "at any time" may not interrupt another action in progress, unless it suspends play or is a valid response to that action.
[snip]
Cards that play "at any time" likewise may not play between start-of-turn or end-of-turn actions, like probing or using Tyranny.
Rulebook: Special Download
A card with a [DL] Special Download icon allows you to suspend play at any point during the game (including during a seed phase or an opponent's turn), interrupting other actions as necessary, while you download the target card and immediately play it.
Glossary: at any time
This phrase indicates that an action may be used during any phase of either player's turn (except start-of-turn or end-of-turn), between other actions or as a valid response. It may not interrupt other unrelated actions.
Glossary: downloading - special download
A card with a special download icon [DL] allows you to suspend any action at any time (even during your opponent's turn) while you download the specified target card and immediately play it.
Glossary: suspends play
A card which specifically says it "suspends play" may be played at any time during the play phase (even during your opponent's turn) and may interrupt and temporarily suspend any action.
[snip]
If no action is in progress, an action that may suspend play (such as using a special download icon) does not suspend anything. You may not suspend play during the seed phases.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#578234
So, having posted all of that, I'll now express doubts about my own stance. :shifty:

The glossary entry for "special download" says it "allows you to suspend any action at any time". The glossary entry for "at any time" provides the text "indicates that an action may be used [snip] as a valid response". While I have never taken that to mean that all "any time" cards de facto become valid responses to everything, I can see how others might interpret it that way.

This is the one avenue I can see to refute my own line of thinking that special downloads are not "valid responses to everything".

I don't believe that is the correct interpretation of that specific line of text, but, I can see how others might think so.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Regent
Community Contributor
#578235
Wait a sec... go back to that part about not suspending play during the seed phase?

Is that a relic entry or has everybody been playing Star Track Cardz wrong for the last decade?

And that goes back to the literally-at-any-time nature of [DL] ... we CAN do them during the seed phase (unless we've been playing Star Track Cardz wrong for the last decade)... talk about inviolable... you can grab a Tantalus Field with Tiberius in the pre-game but not while your opponent is processing ore or whatever? That makes zero sense.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#578236
Armus wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:54 pm Wait a sec... go back to that part about not suspending play during the seed phase?

Is that a relic entry or has everybody been playing Star Track Cardz wrong for the last decade?

And that goes back to the literally-at-any-time nature of [DL] ... we CAN do them during the seed phase (unless we've been playing Star Track Cardz wrong for the last decade)... talk about inviolable... you can grab a Tantalus Field with Tiberius in the pre-game but not while your opponent is processing ore or whatever? That makes zero sense.
Like I said, there is a specific carve-out in the rulebook for [DL] during the seed phase. There isn't for the start and end of turn.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Regent
Community Contributor
#578237
JeBuS wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:57 pm
Armus wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:54 pm Wait a sec... go back to that part about not suspending play during the seed phase?

Is that a relic entry or has everybody been playing Star Track Cardz wrong for the last decade?

And that goes back to the literally-at-any-time nature of [DL] ... we CAN do them during the seed phase (unless we've been playing Star Track Cardz wrong for the last decade)... talk about inviolable... you can grab a Tantalus Field with Tiberius in the pre-game but not while your opponent is processing ore or whatever? That makes zero sense.
Like I said, there is a specific carve-out in the rulebook for [DL] during the seed phase. There isn't for the start and end of turn.
I still say that glossary entry needs an update. It's misleading in the context of [DL].

But I think the key point is that special download entry you cited:
suspend play at any point during the game (including during a seed phase or an opponent's turn), interrupting other actions as necessary, while you download the target card and immediately play it.
How would the start/ end of turn phases not be "any point" where you could drop a [DL] ? That's how I read it...
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#578238
Armus wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 8:11 pm
JeBuS wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:57 pm
Armus wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:54 pm Wait a sec... go back to that part about not suspending play during the seed phase?

Is that a relic entry or has everybody been playing Star Track Cardz wrong for the last decade?

And that goes back to the literally-at-any-time nature of [DL] ... we CAN do them during the seed phase (unless we've been playing Star Track Cardz wrong for the last decade)... talk about inviolable... you can grab a Tantalus Field with Tiberius in the pre-game but not while your opponent is processing ore or whatever? That makes zero sense.
Like I said, there is a specific carve-out in the rulebook for [DL] during the seed phase. There isn't for the start and end of turn.
I still say that glossary entry needs an update. It's misleading in the context of [DL].

But I think the key point is that special download entry you cited:
suspend play at any point during the game (including during a seed phase or an opponent's turn), interrupting other actions as necessary, while you download the target card and immediately play it.
How would the start/ end of turn phases not be "any point" where you could drop a [DL] ? That's how I read it...
Because the Glossary > Rulebook.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Regent
Community Contributor
#578239
JeBuS wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 8:13 pm
Armus wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 8:11 pm
JeBuS wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:57 pm Like I said, there is a specific carve-out in the rulebook for [DL] during the seed phase. There isn't for the start and end of turn.
I still say that glossary entry needs an update. It's misleading in the context of [DL].

But I think the key point is that special download entry you cited:
suspend play at any point during the game (including during a seed phase or an opponent's turn), interrupting other actions as necessary, while you download the target card and immediately play it.
How would the start/ end of turn phases not be "any point" where you could drop a [DL] ? That's how I read it...
Because the Glossary > Rulebook.
Ok, but then we've all been playing Star Track Cardz wrong for the last decade because the Glossary says you can't suspend play during the seed phase in direct contradiction to the rulebook.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#578241
Armus wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 8:18 pm
JeBuS wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 8:13 pm
Armus wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 8:11 pm

I still say that glossary entry needs an update. It's misleading in the context of [DL].

But I think the key point is that special download entry you cited:



How would the start/ end of turn phases not be "any point" where you could drop a [DL] ? That's how I read it...
Because the Glossary > Rulebook.
Ok, but then we've all been playing Star Track Cardz wrong for the last decade because the Glossary says you can't suspend play during the seed phase in direct contradiction to the rulebook.
While I won't rule out that is the case (it's happened before), I am not following your line of thought. What is the occurrence of suspend play during seed phase that you're saying contradicts the rulebook?
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#578346
I stand by what I said: I think [DL] work during EOT/SOT under current rules, and that they always have.

But the rules are ambiguous enough and the players here seem conflicted enough about what the traditional practice is that I'm gonna make a poll.

EDIT: It's up. Vote now.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#578376
Disclaimer:
This is my attempt to argue from the opposing viewpoint(s). I don't actually stand behind these statements, but I'm writing them so that I can try to better understand them.
1) Glossary: downloading - special download has errant text. "at any time" should be stricken from the entry. As a result, the rulebook entry for Special Download will become the controlling text, using the verbiage "at any point".

2) Glossary: at any time turns every such card into a valid response to anything. As such, [DL] defacto become legal plays during start and end of turn (in the absence of argument #1).

Now, my personal thoughts on each argument.

1) This may well be the route we go in the future. I'd suggest adding a new Glossary entry for "at any point", to add to that lovely list of timing phrases we have littered about. Be careful though, because it is a phrase used elsewhere for different usage. But it is not where we are today. I would implore everyone to heed my warning that there be monsters, and this way lies madness.

2) For this to be true, you have to argue that part of the sentence making any time actions a universal valid response should ignore the parenthetical of the very same sentence which precludes the timing window of start and end of turn. This is a logical inconsistency which I just cannot reconcile, no matter how hard I try.
And, what is the effect on the game if every "at any time" card becomes a valid response to everything? I don't know the answer to that. It feels... Big.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Regent
Community Contributor
#578381
JeBuS wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 11:08 am
pfti wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 11:02 am It just needs to be clear that suspends play speed =/= at any time.
That would, indeed, resolve the current predicament. But I feel trepidatious about the knock-on effects of opening start and end of turn .
They're already open in real terms. I'm not so sure this would create anything new so much at square the rules up with what's already happening.
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By Orbin (James Monsebroten)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#578391
Armus wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 11:36 am
JeBuS wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 11:08 am
pfti wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 11:02 am It just needs to be clear that suspends play speed =/= at any time.
That would, indeed, resolve the current predicament. But I feel trepidatious about the knock-on effects of opening start and end of turn .
They're already open in real terms. I'm not so sure this would create anything new so much at square the rules up with what's already happening.
Not sure what you meant by "already open in real terms". What's being argued is that some people play it so that start and end of turn are off limits for [DL] and some people play it the other way. For the people who play it so you can't use those times to use [DL] those spaces aren't open.

Practical example: Tester test new cards and if all testers used the "you can't [DL] during start and end of turn phases" then new cards aren't getting vetted against being used in those spaces and that could lead to unintended consequences

This thread shows the community doesn't have a shared understanding and I feel it's good we're talking about it so we can get to a shared understanding and update the rule book and glossary appropriately.

-James M

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