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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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#579422
It does require a [Fed] icon, since Earth Outpost has to go to a location where it can play. (Ditto outposts fetched with Consume: Outpost.)

There are no asymmetric missions in the Neutral Zone, so I don't have to answer the question about which end of the mission needs the icon. (Phew!)
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By Orbin (James Monsebroten)
 - Delta Quadrant
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#579424
BCSWowbagger wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:54 am It does require a [Fed] icon, since Earth Outpost has to go to a location where it can play. (Ditto outposts fetched with Consume: Outpost.)

There are no asymmetric missions in the Neutral Zone, so I don't have to answer the question about which end of the mission needs the icon. (Phew!)
Earth Outpost says: "Seeds (limit one) or plays at a Neutral Zone Region mission." Since it gives a target location shouldn't that bypass any affiliation restriction? If not, what makes the wording on Earth Outpost require a [Fed] icon compared to the wording of Neutral Outpost that doesn't require a [Neu] icon? Is it the "any"?

-James M
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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#579447
Orbin wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:36 am
BCSWowbagger wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:54 am It does require a [Fed] icon, since Earth Outpost has to go to a location where it can play. (Ditto outposts fetched with Consume: Outpost.)

There are no asymmetric missions in the Neutral Zone, so I don't have to answer the question about which end of the mission needs the icon. (Phew!)
Earth Outpost says: "Seeds (limit one) or plays at a Neutral Zone Region mission." Since it gives a target location shouldn't that bypass any affiliation restriction? If not, what makes the wording on Earth Outpost require a [Fed] icon compared to the wording of Neutral Outpost that doesn't require a [Neu] icon? Is it the "any"?
THE META-ANSWER: I didn't re-read Earth Outpost before answering the question and forgot about its text. Had I remembered this, I would not have replied to the thread at all, instead waiting to see what other community opinions are (as is my usual practice when there is even slight ambiguity or when the controlling rule is well-known). Oh, well! I'm stuck in the thread now!

THE ACTUAL ANSWER: The controlling rule here is from facilities - seeding and building facilities:
Facilities may seed only in their native quadrant (but may be built during the play phase in any quadrant, if appropriate). You may seed or build an outpost only at a mission (either [P] or [S], belonging to either player) with a matching affiliation icon (unless the outpost's text specifies otherwise, such as the Neutral Outpost).
The Rules Committee has previously ruled that cards like Consume: Outpost do not override this requirement, or other requirements for building an outpost. (This is also why you couldn't Consume: Outpost at a homeworld, and why you can't do Test For Weakness at the same mission where you already have your own outpost.)

So, yes, my interpretation is that Neutral Outpost's "any" clearly overrides the normal affiliation requirement, whereas Earth Outpost's has no "any" and offers no indication that it intends to override the standard requirement. I think this is a close enough question to be contestable, and, in the absence of clearer guidance, I would not beef with a T.D. who ruled the other way.

This, incidentally, has been one minor hurdle that my Test For Weakness deck: I've got 5 Neutral Zone missions, but only 3 are [Fed], and I usually seed my [1E-Rom] outpost at one of them, which leaves only 2 missions where I can do TFW. The deck is very good, though, so a little speed bump like that is not untoward.
Dukat wrote:(Establish Trade Route and its download, to my knowledge, overrides the requirement for a Ferengi affiliation icon on the mission; which seems to be the same thing.)
This makes a certain amount of design sense, since E.T.R.'s purpose seems to have been (in part) to help [Fer] attempt non-[Fer] missions... but I don't think it actually works under current rules, and there doesn't seem to be any official card ruling supporting this.

Under current rules, it appears that E.T.R. can only download a Ferengi Trading Post if it's completed at a non-homeworld [Fer] mission where you don't already own a facility (and you can't get the equipment without the Trading Post).
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By Dukat (Andreas Rheinländer)
 - Gamma Quadrant
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1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
1E German National Runner-Up 2024
#579448
This is also why you couldn't Consume: Outpost at a homeworld, and why you can't do Test For Weakness at the same mission where you already have your own outpost.
Why?

Not that it has ever been a problem, but where is it stated that only one facility AT ALL can exist at a location?
(As I said ... I can't remember any instance where that had ever been a question ... in ... well ... over 20 years.)
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By Orbin (James Monsebroten)
 - Delta Quadrant
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#579449
BCSWowbagger wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:10 pm
Orbin wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:36 am
BCSWowbagger wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:54 am It does require a [Fed] icon, since Earth Outpost has to go to a location where it can play. (Ditto outposts fetched with Consume: Outpost.)

There are no asymmetric missions in the Neutral Zone, so I don't have to answer the question about which end of the mission needs the icon. (Phew!)
Earth Outpost says: "Seeds (limit one) or plays at a Neutral Zone Region mission." Since it gives a target location shouldn't that bypass any affiliation restriction? If not, what makes the wording on Earth Outpost require a [Fed] icon compared to the wording of Neutral Outpost that doesn't require a [Neu] icon? Is it the "any"?
THE META-ANSWER: I didn't re-read Earth Outpost before answering the question and forgot about its text. Had I remembered this, I would not have replied to the thread at all, instead waiting to see what other community opinions are (as is my usual practice when there is even slight ambiguity or when the controlling rule is well-known). Oh, well! I'm stuck in the thread now!

THE ACTUAL ANSWER: The controlling rule here is from facilities - seeding and building facilities:
Facilities may seed only in their native quadrant (but may be built during the play phase in any quadrant, if appropriate). You may seed or build an outpost only at a mission (either [P] or [S], belonging to either player) with a matching affiliation icon (unless the outpost's text specifies otherwise, such as the Neutral Outpost).
The Rules Committee has previously ruled that cards like Consume: Outpost do not override this requirement, or other requirements for building an outpost. (This is also why you couldn't Consume: Outpost at a homeworld, and why you can't do Test For Weakness at the same mission where you already have your own outpost.)

So, yes, my interpretation is that Neutral Outpost's "any" clearly overrides the normal affiliation requirement, whereas Earth Outpost's has no "any" and offers no indication that it intends to override the standard requirement. I think this is a close enough question to be contestable, and, in the absence of clearer guidance, I would not beef with a T.D. who ruled the other way.

This, incidentally, has been one minor hurdle that my Test For Weakness deck: I've got 5 Neutral Zone missions, but only 3 are [Fed], and I usually seed my [1E-Rom] outpost at one of them, which leaves only 2 missions where I can do TFW. The deck is very good, though, so a little speed bump like that is not untoward.
Dukat wrote:(Establish Trade Route and its download, to my knowledge, overrides the requirement for a Ferengi affiliation icon on the mission; which seems to be the same thing.)
This makes a certain amount of design sense, since E.T.R.'s purpose seems to have been (in part) to help [Fer] attempt non-[Fer] missions... but I don't think it actually works under current rules, and there doesn't seem to be any official card ruling supporting this.

Under current rules, it appears that E.T.R. can only download a Ferengi Trading Post if it's completed at a non-homeworld [Fer] mission where you don't already own a facility (and you can't get the equipment without the Trading Post).
I feel that requiring Earth Outpost to seed at a [Fed] isn't clear. There is enough room on the card to add the [Fed] affiliation icon, so if it is supposed to work that way I would recommend putting this up for the Balance team to errata.

The main reason I'm calling this out is that using "any" in this way feels like a hidden rule that people are going to get wrong. Looking at Starbase 247, it explicitly calls out "any [Fed] [1E-S] mission". If not using "any" implies affiliation locked then why doesn't it say "seeds or plays at a [1E-S] mission"?

-James M
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#579451
Glossary under Facilites: You may not seed or build any facility at a location where you already have a facility, even if uncontrolled, commandeered, or assimilated, unless one allows another to "co-exist" there (e.g., Chamber of Ministers). (However, you could have two facilities at a location as a result of moving or commandeering one.)
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
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#579452
Orbin wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:59 pm ]I feel that requiring Earth Outpost to seed at a [Fed] isn't clear. There is enough room on the card to add the [Fed] affiliation icon, so if it is supposed to work that way I would recommend putting this up for the Balance team to errata.

The main reason I'm calling this out is that using "any" in this way feels like a hidden rule that people are going to get wrong. Looking at Starbase 247, it explicitly calls out "any [Fed] [1E-S] mission". If not using "any" implies affiliation locked then why doesn't it say "seeds or plays at a [1E-S] mission"?

-James M
I second this. Further, I would have assumed the instructions to DL at a specific location on all three of these cards (Test, Consume, Establish) would have worked similar to downloading a personnel, where it overcomes the rule based restrictions when target is specified.
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By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#579470
boromirofborg wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:07 pm
Orbin wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:59 pm ]I feel that requiring Earth Outpost to seed at a [Fed] isn't clear. There is enough room on the card to add the [Fed] affiliation icon, so if it is supposed to work that way I would recommend putting this up for the Balance team to errata.

The main reason I'm calling this out is that using "any" in this way feels like a hidden rule that people are going to get wrong. Looking at Starbase 247, it explicitly calls out "any [Fed] [1E-S] mission". If not using "any" implies affiliation locked then why doesn't it say "seeds or plays at a [1E-S] mission"?

-James M
I second this. Further, I would have assumed the instructions to DL at a specific location on all three of these cards (Test, Consume, Establish) would have worked similar to downloading a personnel, where it overcomes the rule based restrictions when target is specified.
Ditto. I would assume that the card text overrides the rule, in this case. The card provides the place for the outpost.
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By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
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#579476
JeBuS wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:09 pm
boromirofborg wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:07 pm
Orbin wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:59 pm ]I feel that requiring Earth Outpost to seed at a [Fed] isn't clear. There is enough room on the card to add the [Fed] affiliation icon, so if it is supposed to work that way I would recommend putting this up for the Balance team to errata.

The main reason I'm calling this out is that using "any" in this way feels like a hidden rule that people are going to get wrong. Looking at Starbase 247, it explicitly calls out "any [Fed] [1E-S] mission". If not using "any" implies affiliation locked then why doesn't it say "seeds or plays at a [1E-S] mission"?

-James M
I second this. Further, I would have assumed the instructions to DL at a specific location on all three of these cards (Test, Consume, Establish) would have worked similar to downloading a personnel, where it overcomes the rule based restrictions when target is specified.
Ditto. I would assume that the card text overrides the rule, in this case. The card provides the place for the outpost.
Also ditto. I thought the whole point of providing a target location was so that you could use it anywhere in the neutral zone in your neutral zone deck. Providing a target goes to the "cards override rules" thing, right?
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
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#579478
Seeds (limit one) or plays at a Neutral Zone Region mission.
I tend to read this text as a restriction, not a permission. Normally, you could seed Earth Outpost at any [Fed] mission in the Alpha Quadrant. "Not so fast!" says this gametext: you can actually only seed it at a [Fed] mission in the Alpha Quadrant in the Neutral Zone Region. Nothing about this text indicates to me that it is attempting to override the general rules. It just seems to add to them.

However, when player intuition cuts strongly against a rule or ruling, sometimes that means that the rule or ruling should be reconsidered, rather than telling all the players to correct their intuitions. So, I will try to sound out what the boundaries of this intuition are:

For those of you who think that this text is sufficient to override the rule: do you think Earth Outpost overrides all the rules about where you can build an outpost, or just the affiliation icon restriction?

By that, I mean: do you think that you could play Earth Outpost (from hand) (under your own control) at a Neutral Zone mission where you already own another facility?

By the same token, could you play Starbase One on Deliver Ancient Artifact (the Vulcan homeworld)?

For that matter, could you play Starbase One on Research Devastating Attack, the Starfleet homeworld?

(Could you still do this even if Office of the President is already there?)

Thanks for your intuitive guidance.
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#579494
@BCSWowbagger

There’s two separate things I would have assumed prior to this discussion:

All of the facilities that say you may play / build at X are still under the rules of where you can build. That’s limitations on where you can play, and the cards are further limiting it.

(Similar to how I would assume quadrant restrictions, etc on ships)

Cards that say you may/must download the facility to a certain spot, I would assume overrides any other natural restrictions. (homeworld, affiliation icon, other facilities)


That’s not 100% consistent, but it fits the sense of playing it for me.


Hypothetical example.
Office of The President must seed on Earth, but if there was a card that said “Play on Mars, you may download Office of the President here”, I wouldn’t assume it couldn’t work.
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By Dukat (Andreas Rheinländer)
 - Gamma Quadrant
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1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
1E German National Runner-Up 2024
#579495
@James:
My question still stands: Where does it state that it is not possible that I have a facility AND my opponent has a facility, at the same mission location?

You mentioned that you can't test for weakness where you have your outpost. I see no reason for that.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
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#579497
Sorry I wasn't clear. I thought this was answered by Boromir, so I didn't follow up.
Dukat wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:40 am @James:
My question still stands: Where does it state that it is not possible that I have a facility AND my opponent has a facility, at the same mission location?
There is no such rule. If you seed an outpost at a location, and your opponent seeds his outpost at the same location, that's fine.
You mentioned that you can't test for weakness where you have your outpost. I see no reason for that.
This is correct. That's because, even though one of the outposts is under opponent's control, you are the owner of both cards, and a single player can't have two facilities at the same location (at least, not without help from a card like Chamber of Ministers). Boromir quoted the relevant rule a few posts ago:
Glossary under Facilites: You may not seed or build any facility at a location where you already have a facility, even if uncontrolled, commandeered, or assimilated, unless one allows another to "co-exist" there (e.g., Chamber of Ministers). (However, you could have two facilities at a location as a result of moving or commandeering one.)
This is analogous to how, if your opponent captures your Gowron and Brainwashes him (so the Gowron you own is now under your opponent's control), you can't play a second copy of Gowron. You already have a Gowron in play, and the uniqueness rule prevents you from playing more.

You can give an opponent control of a facility you own with Test for Weakness, but, just like a captured personnel, you still have it in play at that location, so it can't co-exist with your other facility.
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