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By Dukat
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Semi-Finalist 2022
#580180
Hi,

quick question ...

How does dual personnel and Ancestral Vision work?

Let's say I have Dual Personnel with Honor and together they have more than 7 Integrity. Does that count for Ancestral Vision?

Or does it have to be a single personnel in order to work?
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 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Socialite
1E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
2E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
#580198
Armus wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:20 pm
pfti wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:18 pm Right now, single half of the card
:shifty:
Oh sheebus don't make dual personnel more complicated. Right now they work pretty logically. ASP can target half of Sergey and Helena. Ferengi conference only sees 3 dots for Jake and nog. Don't accidentally bork these things up.
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 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#580205
Hoss-Drone wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:47 pm Ferengi conference only sees 3 dots for Jake and nog.
Except when it sees six. Easy peasy. :)
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
1E World Champion 2021
Contender
Community Contributor
1E North American Continental Runner-Up 2022
#580207
Hoss-Drone wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:47 pmRight Oh sheebus don't make dual personnel more complicated. Right now they work pretty logically. ASP can target half of Sergey and Helena. Ferengi conference only sees 3 dots for Jake and nog. Don't accidentally bork these things up.
This is a very interesting post, and here's why:

Under current dual-personnel rules, Ferengi Conference counts Jake and Nog as six dots, not three. (And, yes, they always count as six dots; this can't be evaded by downloading them as the last members of the group, as some players erroneously believe.) The Trois only count as 2 dots for Ferengi Conference, but Jake and Nog are 6.

The rampant confusion about this sort of thing -- even among people who are very confident that they understand the dual-personnel rules -- is precisely why Rules is taking a look at the dual-personnel rules.

The challenge, of course, is coming up with something better, something that can be understood and accepted by a community used to playing the dualies a different way... especially without, as you say, accidentally borking up something else, which would be all too easy to do. If we can find something that accomplishes that goal, then we're likely to change it. If not, then we'll just have to accept that this probably can't be fixed, is inherently confusing, and we'll just have to keep correcting mistakes about it until the sun goes out.
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 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Grand Nagus
#580212
Verdammt. Jetzt werde ich langsam verärgert... Lasst die Regeln, wie sie sind und hört auf, zu versuchen, dieses wundervolle Spiel mit Macht eurem Spielstil unterordnen zu wollen, von aller höchster Ebene. Das nimmt ja kein Ende. Ref soll weg, Dual-Rumgewurstel, eine noch sehr korrekturbedürftige Erweiterung mit hoch-bedenklichen Karten in der Testphase (man merkt sofort, ob Europäer oder Amerikaner designen...) usw. 1E ist mehr als draw-three-play-three-fly-to-missions-solve und das hat pretty please gefälligst so zu bleiben.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
1E World Champion 2021
Contender
Community Contributor
1E North American Continental Runner-Up 2022
#580213
Dukat wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:10 am What about Dual Personnel and Recruit Mercenaries ... same thing as Ferengi Conference?
Correct. The controlling rule is:
Rulebook: Dual-Personnel Cards: Downloading Dual Personnel wrote:Dual-personnel cards are downloaded normally; if you download Seska (on Cullah and Seska) with Defend Homeworld, Culluh automatically downloads, too.

If a card allows the download of multiple personnel, all legal targets on a dual-personnel card must count towards the limits of the download. For example, suppose you use Ferengi Conference to download CIVILIANs with up to 11 [SD]. First, you download Jake and Nog. They are both CIVILIANs and both count, using 6 of your [SD]. Then, you download Deanna Troi on The Trois, using 2 of your [SD]. (Lwaxana is not a CIVILIAN, so her [SD] do not count.)
Also:
Caretaker's Guest wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:28 amhört auf, zu versuchen, dieses wundervolle Spiel mit Macht eurem Spielstil unterordnen zu wollen, von aller höchster Ebene.
No one on the Rules Committee has any interest in doing this. Indeed, the Rules Committee is as concerned as anyone about the game's degeneration toward play-3 draw-3 mission solving.

The only thing the Rules Committee is interested in is making rules that players actually understand. Given that many, many players, including players "von aller höchster Ebene" routinely misunderstand the dual-personnel rules, it seems well worth looking for a rule that would be less confusing.

Again, though:
The challenge, of course, is coming up with something better, something that can be understood and accepted by a community used to playing the dualies a different way... especially without, as you say, accidentally borking up something else, which would be all too easy to do. If we can find something that accomplishes that goal, then we're likely to change it. If not, then we'll just have to accept that this probably can't be fixed, is inherently confusing, and we'll just have to keep correcting mistakes about it until the sun goes out.
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By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#580239
Rulebook: Dual-Personnel Cards: Downloading Dual Personnel wrote:
Dual-personnel cards are downloaded normally; if you download Seska (on Cullah and Seska) with Defend Homeworld, Culluh automatically downloads, too.

If a card allows the download of multiple personnel, all legal targets on a dual-personnel card must count towards the limits of the download. For example, suppose you use Ferengi Conference to download CIVILIANs with up to 11 [SD]. First, you download Jake and Nog. They are both CIVILIANs and both count, using 6 of your [SD]. Then, you download Deanna Troi on The Trois, using 2 of your [SD]. (Lwaxana is not a CIVILIAN, so her [SD] do not count.)
Wow, yeah I honestly had no idea that was the rule. I thought you could always just target one person and the other came along for the ride........ can i still download Ah-kel and Ro-kel with Recruit Mercenaries and they only count at 3? (Because Ah-Rel has treachery and his bro does not?)

Likewise does this mean I can NEVER DL Sisters of Duras since they have 8 skill dots and RM only lets me get 7, and they both have treachery so I have to count both of them? I still thought I could say "well I'm downloading this treachery dude who has 3 skill dots, and now I'm downloading Lursa on Sisters of Duras who has 4 skill dots, and that is my 7 total, and B'Etor comes along for the ride".
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By Enabran
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#580245
Caretaker's Guest wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:28 am Verdammt. Jetzt werde ich langsam verärgert... Lasst die Regeln, wie sie sind und hört auf, zu versuchen, dieses wundervolle Spiel mit Macht eurem Spielstil unterordnen zu wollen, von aller höchster Ebene. Das nimmt ja kein Ende. Ref soll weg, Dual-Rumgewurstel, eine noch sehr korrekturbedürftige Erweiterung mit hoch-bedenklichen Karten in der Testphase (man merkt sofort, ob Europäer oder Amerikaner designen...) usw. 1E ist mehr als draw-three-play-three-fly-to-missions-solve und das hat pretty please gefälligst so zu bleiben.
Danke :thumbsup:
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 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Grand Nagus
#580248
download Ah-kel and Ro-kel with Recruit Mercenaries and they only count at 3
Yes. At least that was the way it was ruled till this confusing discussion started... I actually have lost track what the intention is here. The old rules on dual-personnel are clear and do not need an overhaul fmpov.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
1E World Champion 2021
Contender
Community Contributor
1E North American Continental Runner-Up 2022
#580252
Takket wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:55 am Wow, yeah I honestly had no idea that was the rule.
Yep. I hear that allllllll the time.
can i still download Ah-kel and Ro-kel with Recruit Mercenaries and they only count at 3? (Because Ah-Rel has treachery and his bro does not?)
That is correct.
Likewise does this mean I can NEVER DL Sisters of Duras since they have 8 skill dots and RM only lets me get 7, and they both have treachery so I have to count both of them?
That is correct.
I still thought I could say "well I'm downloading this treachery dude who has 3 skill dots, and now I'm downloading Lursa on Sisters of Duras who has 4 skill dots, and that is my 7 total, and B'Etor comes along for the ride"
That is incorrect, as you have surmised. However, there was a popular myth in the early 2010s that it worked this way, and a lot of people were (and still are) confused about it.
At least that was the way it was ruled till this confusing discussion started.
Just to be crystal clear, lest there be any more confusion:

No rules or rulings have changed during this discussion. No rules or rulings related to dual-personnel cards have changed for several years. (I think the most recent ruling was that Sergey and Helena is a card that is its own romantic partner, and that was ruled a couple years before Covid, I think.)

Some people have asked the Rules Committee to consider making changes to the dual-personnel rules. The Rules Committee is thinking about it, but has not changed anything.
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Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
 - Online OP Coordinator
 -  
Praetor
1E American National Champion 2020
#580253
The specifics of ride alongs were clarified after the Mahlniv nonesense.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
1E World Champion 2021
Contender
Community Contributor
1E North American Continental Runner-Up 2022
#580262
pfti wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:08 pm The specifics of ride alongs were clarified after the Mahlniv nonesense.
Yep, this is correct. Good times.

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