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By Dukat (Andreas Rheinländer)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
1E German National Runner-Up 2024
#583800
Using Galactic Army Of Light, I can ONLY play Non-Aligned and [SKR] personnel, right?

Since any other personnel is disable otherwise, it is not a legal target for Release This Pain to get them 'undisabled'.

Am I missing something?
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By ShipNerd
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#583805
I think the intention is they are disabled until release the pain is used.

And rules allow the use of release the pain.
Disabled personnel may not be doing anything themselve but playing cards on them is not a problem.

source:
disabled
there is nothing saying you cannot play cards on them.

Stasis
direct quote: "However, unlike disabled cards, ships and personnel in stasis cannot be attacked in battle and cannot be targeted by other cards. "

I think getting someone under your control un-disables them, but i saw no direct quote in the rulebooks, maybe someone else wants to search. I actually didn´t want to use my time to answer rule questions, doing something else now, that i need to do for myselve.
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By pfti (Jon Carter)
 - Online OP Coordinator
 -  
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#583806
I think Dukat is correct.
They may not take actions, use gametext or characteristics, or even enable gametext on other cards that depend on the disabled personnel being in play.
As far as release the pain is concerned, they are not personal so they cannot be targeted by the card.

This seems especially true when we cross-reference with the statis entry in the rulebook
Cards in stasis may not take actions, use gametext, or characteristics, and are considered in play for uniqueness only. In this respect, they are just like disabled cards.
and then the for uniqueness only entry
When a card is in play "for uniqueness only", the card is considered "in play" only insofar as its owner may not report another copy of the same persona. For all other intents and purposes, they are considered not in play.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#583807
Doesn't Galactic Army of Light give the necessary permission with its "You may play Release This Pain on personnel here" line?

A disabled personnel is still a personnel, and while they can't be targeted in general, this is a case of specific text overriding a general rule, is it not?
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By pfti (Jon Carter)
 - Online OP Coordinator
 -  
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#583809
I dont think so, because as far as release the pain is concerned, they are not even in play, so they are neither personnel or here. They are just a placeholder card that says you may not play this personell.
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By ShipNerd
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#583810
Well to me disabled personnel are still personnel and in play such as captive personnel and cards can be played on them, they are only not present/seperated in mission attempts.

but i learned not to discuss because i have no control over what others believe. (refering to the endless discussion with armus once). so i let everyone his opinion, and leave this thread.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Regent
Community Contributor
#583812
pfti wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:48 am I dont think so, because as far as release the pain is concerned, they are not even in play, so they are neither personnel or here. They are just a placeholder card that says you may not play this personell.
I don't think that's correct. A disabled personnel is still a personnel. That never changes. Captain Kirk is a personnel. If he's disabled, he's no longer a captain (characteristic), and if he's aboard the Starship Enterprise
it no longer benefits from having its matching commander aboard for purposes of Captain's Log, etc. (Enabling text on other cards)

But he's still a personnel card type. Card type != characteristic. As such, if he was disabled at Nimbus III with GAoL in play, I'm failing to see why you couldn't play Release This Pain on him (and since he's disabled he can't give the I Need My Pain speech to get out of it :P )

@BCSWowbagger am I wrong here?

And if so, @KazonPADD was it Design intent to allow people to play disabled personnel to Nimbus III and *not* be able to target them with Release This Pain? Because that strikes me as really dumb.

Good news: even if I'm wrong, I think a simple "(even if disabled)" added to the end of the play RTP line solves this (and may not be a bad idea anyway for clarity purposes).

:twocents:
Last edited by Armus on Wed Aug 24, 2022 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Regent
Community Contributor
#583813
ShipNerd wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:12 am Well to me disabled personnel are still personnel and in play such as captive personnel and cards can be played on them, they are only not present/seperated in mission attempts.

but i learned not to discuss because i have no control over what others believe. (refering to the endless discussion with armus once). so i let everyone his opinion, and leave this thread.
Lol I love the passive-agressiveness of this response.

At least have the courtesy to @ me if you're going to call me out.

It's even more funny because it appears in this case we agree.

Or are we both just arguing to argue now? :wink:
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#583815
so the closet parallel we might have is Hypospray/Infirmary.
Once each turn, any MEDICAL personnel unopposed here may "revive" a personnel present who was disabled by a Hypospray (revived personnel is no longer disabled).
So, we know that the rules already support:
- moving disabled personnel like equipment
- remembering that the disabled personnel are in fact, personnel for the purposes of other cards targeting them
- a third card (Infirmary) knowing the source that caused the disabling

I think the intent of existing rules/cards is clear, but the wording of the rules may be another area to be cleaned up.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#583829
boomirofborg wrote: I think the intent of existing rules/cards is clear, but the wording of the rules may be another area to be cleaned up.
Agreed. The reading that disabled personnel cannot be targeted at all might be justifiable by the rules text (the quotes from pfti), but is fundamentally inconsistent with how the game is actually played and would render many cards absurd. A few examples:

-Data's Head could never be attached to Data's Body (even though that's clearly the whole point of the card).
-Captives are treated as disabled. But surely they can be targeted by Interrogation, Brainwash, Torture, or any of the other cards specifically designed to work with captives.
-The "stasis" entry in the rules also distinguishes disability from stasis in that disabled personnel area valid targets for battle.

Actually, reading that entry further, the stasis entry explicitly says that disabled personnel can be targeted by other cards (not just in battle). This does seem to be inconsistent with them being in play for uniqueness only. The odd thing is that *both* of these statements are made in the "stasis" entry, not in the "disabled" entry.

(Edit: the existence of Dead in Bed also implies that cards in stasis are sometimes valid targets, so they are in play for at least a tiny bit more than uniqueness...)
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#583832
From ye Rulebook:
Disabled personnel may not be used in any way. They may not take actions, use gametext or characteristics, or even enable gametext on other cards that depend on the disabled personnel being in play.
To me that reads as "disabled people can't do things", not "you can't do things to disabled people".
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#583834
AllenGould wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:35 am From ye Rulebook:
Disabled personnel may not be used in any way. They may not take actions, use gametext or characteristics, or even enable gametext on other cards that depend on the disabled personnel being in play.
To me that reads as "disabled people can't do things", not "you can't do things to disabled people".
Indeed... I remember @sexecutioner doing terrible things to disabled people years ago at a Gencon Cool Tournament! :lol:
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By ShipNerd
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#583837
ShipNerd wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:20 am
Rulebook
Stasis
direct quote: "However, unlike disabled cards, ships and personnel in stasis cannot be attacked in battle and cannot be targeted by other cards. "
Just quoting myself out of boredom. Don´t bother listening to me, i am used to it by now anyways :wink:
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Regent
Community Contributor
#583839
ShipNerd wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:44 am
ShipNerd wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:20 am
Rulebook
Stasis
direct quote: "However, unlike disabled cards, ships and personnel in stasis cannot be attacked in battle and cannot be targeted by other cards. "
Just quoting myself out of boredom. Don´t mind listening to me, i am used to it :wink:
Nah I think you, me, and @AllenGould are on the same page, while @pfti (and maybe @Rachmaninoff ? Maybe not.) are on the other side.

I'm sure he's at work right now, but I would like to hear the @BCSWowbagger rule master take when he's available, because if we're wrong, then we should probably work with the 1e staff components to come up with wording that better meets Design intent.
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#583840
ShipNerd wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:20 am
Rulebook
Stasis
direct quote: "However, unlike disabled cards, ships and personnel in stasis cannot be attacked in battle and cannot be targeted by other cards. "
Ergo disabled cards CAN be attacked in battle and CAN be targeted by other cards.

While I realize this is from the Stasis entry and not the Disabled entry, but what are we missing here? Clearly, disabled personnel are still personnel and Release this Pain can be played on disabled personnel. That is what the rules infer, and is how the cards are played. All that is left is the glossary/rulebook corrections.
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