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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#584514
I know it is banned, but we were playing an open game.

Can you play shrouding during an opponent's turn?

Eventually we decided yes, but only during the play phase. Asa sort of compromise. Is says Every turn, but it doesn't say At any Time.
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By Enabran
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
2E Austrian National Second Runner-Up 2022
#584525
No. The first part says "during your turn" and the second part "Plays once every turn (for free)" is only doable in your own turn. Except when it is downloaded via a [DL] (but I do not know if any card can download it...)
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#584529
Enabran wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 12:44 pm No. The first part says "during your turn" and the second part "Plays once every turn (for free)" is only doable in your own turn. Except when it is downloaded via a [DL] (but I do not know if any card can download it...)
This is not correct, I think you are thinking of plays once each turn...which would only be on your turn. Every means both players turn, and it exactly why it was banned...

Watchlist Status:
Banned on 2011-07-04: After Rogue Borg Mercenaries was banned, this started to be used as a viable substitute for it.
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By Enabran
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
2E Austrian National Second Runner-Up 2022
#584530
Touche!
This must be the only non [Int] card, that you can play on your opponent's turn
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#584533
Enabran wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:00 pm Touche!
This must be the only non [Int] card, that you can play on your opponent's turn
It is, as opposed to Release This Pain which explicitly says:

Plays once each turn (for free)...
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 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#584534
Really begs the question: if that's the only reason it's banned, how has this not made it off the ban list with a simple errata.
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#584535
Hoss-Drone wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:05 pm Really begs the question: if that's the only reason it's banned, how has this not made it off the ban list with a simple errata.
A fair question indeed. The question is, what is the simple errata? You can't make it each instead of every or it looses much of it's teeth being able to play on opponent's turn. You could make it play for free only on opponent's turn I suppose. It has to be free as you can't otherwise play it on your opponent's turn.

What simple errata would you suggest @Hoss-Drone?
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 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#584537
Professor Scott wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:06 pm
Hoss-Drone wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:05 pm Really begs the question: if that's the only reason it's banned, how has this not made it off the ban list with a simple errata.
A fair question indeed. The question is, what is the simple errata? You can't make it each instead of every or it looses much of it's teeth being able to play on opponent's turn. You could make it play for free only on opponent's turn I suppose. It has to be free as you can't otherwise play it on your opponent's turn.

What simple errata would you suggest @Hoss-Drone?
Only playing it on your own turn for free would be far from toothless and I would think would absolutely be enough to be good but not broken.

Otherwise, adding twice per game limit would be a good thing to test.
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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#584576
Hoss-Drone wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:05 pm Really begs the question: if that's the only reason it's banned, how has this not made it off the ban list with a simple errata.
I can tell you, he locked down all my personnel for 8 straight turns on my last mission. I needed a planet mission because I already solved all the solvable space missions and he was running point drain dilemmas. I had him locked down with White deprivation, so he couldn't leave his jemmies alone with his vortas and he didn't bring any white. The only thing he had left to do was delay me. It was painful.
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 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#584618
winterflames wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 5:55 am
Hoss-Drone wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:05 pm Really begs the question: if that's the only reason it's banned, how has this not made it off the ban list with a simple errata.
I can tell you, he locked down all my personnel for 8 straight turns on my last mission. I needed a planet mission because I already solved all the solvable space missions and he was running point drain dilemmas. I had him locked down with White deprivation, so he couldn't leave his jemmies alone with his vortas and he didn't bring any white. The only thing he had left to do was delay me. It was painful.
I get that lockout was a reason it was banned, but it seems like there are several easy errata options that would make it useful but not be useable in lockout.
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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#584729
OK. But the point of the question was (and I admit, the original was worded poorly for this end) Can someone please tell me When on an opponent's turn Shrouding can be played? Other cards which break type to play at other times specify (launch portal bajoran wormhole holodeck door Temporal Vortex Caretaker's Array)
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#584756
On the rules question: I agree with the resolution. Once every turn means either turn, but it's an [Inc] , so must ordinarily play during the play phase, not the orders phase.

Opponent could theoretically prevent this, I suppose, by moving directly to orders phase during the first action of the turn.

It's a fairly unique situation. We ran into something similar with pre-errata Release This Pain + pre-errata J'Onn. Rules didn't want to keep J'Onn's skill as-is, because playing some copies of RTP as an interrupt made them vulnerable to Amanda Rogers. We even considered "once every turn (for free)" but dismissed it for being too confusing, for exactly this reason. And of course on the post-errata versions, the issue no longer arises at all.

On the reason for the banning: this is one of our best-documented bannings. Full notes here: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=39892
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 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#584812
BCSWowbagger wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 2:23 pm On the rules question: I agree with the resolution. Once every turn means either turn, but it's an [Inc] , so must ordinarily play during the play phase, not the orders phase.

Opponent could theoretically prevent this, I suppose, by moving directly to orders phase during the first action of the turn.

It's a fairly unique situation. We ran into something similar with pre-errata Release This Pain + pre-errata J'Onn. Rules didn't want to keep J'Onn's skill as-is, because playing some copies of RTP as an interrupt made them vulnerable to Amanda Rogers. We even considered "once every turn (for free)" but dismissed it for being too confusing, for exactly this reason. And of course on the post-errata versions, the issue no longer arises at all.

On the reason for the banning: this is one of our best-documented bannings. Full notes here: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=39892
- must come from in play
- once each turn
- must play all jem hadar on shrouding until you get an equal amount.

Card solved and ready for unbanning.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#584814
Think there's room to wedge a mandatory download of White Dep on there?
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By Ausgang (Gerald Sieber)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#584816
From my personal errata file:
Seeds or plays on table; you must download White Deprivation (from outside the game). During your turn, you may place here one Jem'Hadar from hand or in play, then draw a card. (They are in play for uniqueness only.) OR Plays on an opponent's Away Team (on a non-homeworld planet). Initiate battle against that Away Team by playing up to an equal number of personnel to it from your Jem'Hadar Shrouding on table. Discard incident.
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