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By edgeofhearing (Lucas Thompson)
 - Second Edition Art Manager
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#585158
Ok, here goes:

Question One: Can a cloaked ship generate a card draw with Cross-Quadrant Expansion? I think the answer might be no, but then a bunch of similar draw engines specify that the ship must not be cloaked or must be "exposed", so I have some small hope that the answer is yes.

Question Two: Okay, so even if the answer to question one is no, how about a cloaked ship changing spacelines and Where No Man Has Gone Before? That's slightly different, since I think that card is checking for the cloaked ship taking an action rather than the cloaked ship being at a type of place, but I'm not sure.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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#585164
edgeofhearing wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:54 am Ok, here goes:

Question One: Can a cloaked ship generate a card draw with Cross-Quadrant Expansion? I think the answer might be no, but then a bunch of similar draw engines specify that the ship must not be cloaked or must be "exposed", so I have some small hope that the answer is yes.

Question Two: Okay, so even if the answer to question one is no, how about a cloaked ship changing spacelines and Where No Man Has Gone Before? That's slightly different, since I think that card is checking for the cloaked ship taking an action rather than the cloaked ship being at a type of place, but I'm not sure.
1.) Pretty sure the answer is Nope. Sorry.

2.) I think yes based on the recent ruling clarification that cloaked ships are still on the spaceline, and can be targeted with Quantum Slipstream Drive
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By Ausgang (Gerald Sieber)
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#585165
Armus wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 7:56 am
edgeofhearing wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:54 am Ok, here goes:

Question One: Can a cloaked ship generate a card draw with Cross-Quadrant Expansion? I think the answer might be no, but then a bunch of similar draw engines specify that the ship must not be cloaked or must be "exposed", so I have some small hope that the answer is yes.

Question Two: Okay, so even if the answer to question one is no, how about a cloaked ship changing spacelines and Where No Man Has Gone Before? That's slightly different, since I think that card is checking for the cloaked ship taking an action rather than the cloaked ship being at a type of place, but I'm not sure.
1.) Pretty sure the answer is Nope. Sorry.

2.) I think yes based on the recent ruling clarification that cloaked ships are still on the spaceline, and can be targeted with Quantum Slipstream Drive
Funny, I read that ruling the other way (they are at locations but cannot be targeted unless specifically refering to cloaked ships). Would say yes to question 1. No to question 2 for the range boost, but yes to the card draw. So much for clarification...
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
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#585167
Ausgang wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:25 am
Armus wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 7:56 am
edgeofhearing wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:54 am Ok, here goes:

Question One: Can a cloaked ship generate a card draw with Cross-Quadrant Expansion? I think the answer might be no, but then a bunch of similar draw engines specify that the ship must not be cloaked or must be "exposed", so I have some small hope that the answer is yes.

Question Two: Okay, so even if the answer to question one is no, how about a cloaked ship changing spacelines and Where No Man Has Gone Before? That's slightly different, since I think that card is checking for the cloaked ship taking an action rather than the cloaked ship being at a type of place, but I'm not sure.
1.) Pretty sure the answer is Nope. Sorry.

2.) I think yes based on the recent ruling clarification that cloaked ships are still on the spaceline, and can be targeted with Quantum Slipstream Drive
Funny, I read that ruling the other way (they are at locations but cannot be targeted unless specifically refering to cloaked ships). Would say yes to question 1. No to question 2 for the range boost, but yes to the card draw. So much for clarification...
That ruling came out of me asking about using QSD to relocate a cloaked ship. The short answer was yes it works but the cloaking rules were a bit ambiguously worded.

Cloaked ships are still on the spaceline. That's the relevant takeaway for this question.
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
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#585205
Here's the relevant rule: https://www.trekcc.org/op/1e_rulebook/#CLOAK

Answers:

1. No.

2. Yes.

3.
Funny, I read that ruling the other way (they are at locations but cannot be targeted unless specifically refering to cloaked ships).
Uh-oh!

Hopefully I just didn't communicate it clearly enough in the article (in which case I apologize), and the rule is clear enough:
Your opponent may not target your cloaked cards.

Cloaked cards are affected normally by cards that do not require specific targeting. For example, cloaked ships are affected normally by Q-Net, Stellar Flare, and Navigate Plasma Storms.

Cloaked cards are not considered to be opposing, present, "here" or otherwise located at their current location for requirements or abilities.

Although cloaked ships are technically at locations (for movement) and may be on a spaceline or at a year (for cards like Quantum Slipstream Drive or UFP: One Small Step), they ignore requirements and abilities that would treat them as present, opposing, "here" or which otherwise acknowledge their current location. For example, if on a cloaked ship, Captain Chakotay's attribute bonus applies to personnel on his ship but not on any others.
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#585207
The more flavorful answer:

Cloaking means you're there, but you're hiding. So you can't do things that would reveal you're present (because then you wouldn't be hiding anymore.)

Captain Chakotay is the easy example - if the other Maquis don't know he's in system, he can't really inspire them, can he? :)

Stuff like Cross-Quadrant stretches the analogy a bit, but presumably if you have to have a ship there, it means that ship is doing something visible - and thus being cloaked would preclude doing whatever it is you were doing that earned you a card. And it's about this point we move from flavor to rules and say that while we could go down a very deep rabbit hole about whether the story represented in an individual card means that the ship didn't need to be visible... it's a lot saner from a game perspective to stick with a consistent and simpler rule. :)
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By edgeofhearing (Lucas Thompson)
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#585216
BCSWowbagger wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:42 pm Here's the relevant rule: https://www.trekcc.org/op/1e_rulebook/#CLOAK

Answers:

1. No.

2. Yes.
Thanks! I had read the relevant rule entry, but it was just vague enough that my instinct was No and No rather than No and Yes (though, as noted, there are plenty of cards that hedge their wording enough that I wasn't sure of either No). Glad I asked, because No and Yes is a much better answer.
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By Ausgang (Gerald Sieber)
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#585229
BCSWowbagger wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:42 pm
Funny, I read that ruling the other way (they are at locations but cannot be targeted unless specifically refering to cloaked ships).
Uh-oh!

Hopefully I just didn't communicate it clearly enough in the article (in which case I apologize), and the rule is clear enough:
To be fair, I only read the article and didn't re-read any rule or glossary entry. Especially the rhetorical figure you use as an entry is potentially misleading into this opposition: This is the intuitive way VS This is the actual way. The solution to the conundrum could have been more explicit too. Also, there is this statement in the article, which sounds contradictory to the rules (at least for me): "cloaked ships are still at locations; it's just that they can't be particularly targeted".

Bottom line is, after reading the actual rules (and not the article), I would have come to the same answers ;)
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#585235
Okay, that's a relief. It's bad that my words were misleading in the article, but at least the Rules Committee got it right when they drafted the Rulebook entry.

I can see how I misled you in the article, though. Thanks for explaining! I'll try and learn from this one and do better in the next article.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Community Contributor
#585720
edgeofhearing wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:02 pm Follow-up question(s): When I move a ship through the Bajoran Wormhole with Where No Man Has Gone Before in play, what happens first: the ship getting stopped, or the draw/report? Could I even report a card to a stopped ship?
The stop happens first, as it's part of the movement action, while WNMHGB is a response to the movement action.

I'm not aware of any reason you can't report a person to a stopped ship... this isn't 2e after all... :wink:
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