By Winner of Borg (Stefan Slaby)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
1E European Continental Champion 2023
1E Austrian National Champion 2023
2E Austrian National Champion 2022
1E Borg Region Regional Champion 2023
2E Borg Region Regional Champion 2023
#591327
if your ship has Cytherians on it, and your Q of Borg dies to a dilemma during a scouting attempt, what should happen?

A1) the scouting attempt is past its initiation step (and Cytherians isn't the active dilemma so it doesn't get a chance to abort the attempt like it normally would). scouting continues normally, Cytherians kick in after the attempt ends.

A2) the scouting attempt is past its initiation step (and Cytherians isn't the active dilemma so it doesn't get a chance to abort the attempt like it normally would). the attempt continues - but Cytherians already prevent your personnel from initiating unrelated actions (e.g. Special Downloads).

B1) Cytherians become active immediately, so the attempt ends after completely resolving the active dilemma.

B2) Cytherians become active immediately, so the attempt ends immediately (just as if Cytherians had been just placed on the ship). if the current dilemma has any steps remaining it gets replaced under the mission.

i could see myself arguing for any of these, depending on the side of the table i'm on...
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#591358
@BCSWowbagger @LORE @Professor Scott You guys may remember this situation from July 2020. Has anything changed with Cytherians interactions since then?
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#591360
From the glossary:

actions - required

...
"Must do nothing but" means that the affected ship and/or crew cannot initiate or continue any other voluntary actions (cloaking, beaming, attempting, battling, etc.) until the required action is completed, even if that takes more than one turn. ...

B2 is correct.

Cytherians is constantly in effect, only Q of Borg is holding it in check. The instant Q is removed, via death or simply beaming Q to the planet, the Cytherians effect moves the ship according to the remaining range. I have coined the term "Borg Shuffle" referring to my moving my cube back and force before beginning a [1E-S] attempt to ensure I don't have enough range left if I get hit with Cytherians which allows me next turn to Q's Tent for Q prior to reattempting.
Last edited by Professor Scott on Thu Jan 12, 2023 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#591362
Doesn't encountering, and more specifically resolving dilemmas fall under the action of attempting......or put it another way, if Cytherians is affecting my ship and I can somehow at [DL] speed kill my own Q in order to bug out, how is that different than Kes or Nilz or Smoke Bomb in it's dilemma resolution interaction?
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#591365
JeBuS wrote:@BCSWowbagger @LORE @Professor Scott You guys may remember this situation from July 2020. Has anything changed with Cytherians interactions since then?
I don't remember it, but there's a bunch of stuff from that far back I have no memory of!

(I started writing this post before Professor Scott commented. I largely agree with him.)

I don't think A1 or A2 can be correct, because actions - required says:
"Must do nothing but" means that the affected ship and/or crew cannot initiate or continue any other voluntary actions (cloaking, beaming, attempting, battling, etc.) until the required action is completed, even if that takes more than one turn.
Attempting is a voluntary action that is cut short by any "must do nothing but" effect. Cytherians isn't being encountered for the first time, but its global "must do nothing but" effect returns as soon as Q is gone, which means the affected ship cannot continue the attempt.

That leaves B1 and B2.

I don't think B1 is correct, because I find no support in the rules for "resolve the entire current dilemma before [BAD THING]."

For a few years, there was a ruling that, if you were deprived of all matching personnel during the first effect of a multi-effect dilemma, you resolved the entire dilemma before the attempt failed for lack of matching personnel. That's probably where the idea for B1 came from. However, that ruling never extended to anything else (that I recall) and that ruling is no longer on the books, because the game no longer checks for matching personnel except at the start and end of an attempt.

That pretty much leaves B2: [BAD THING] hits immediately, before the dilemma fully resolves. However, I think the bolded part of B2 is wrong, too:
B2) Cytherians become active immediately, so the attempt ends immediately (just as if Cytherians had been just placed on the ship). if the current dilemma has any steps remaining it gets replaced under the mission.
The bolded sentence can't be right, because:
Clarification: Reseed After Escapes (7.2.6.0.1)
If, just after encountering a dilemma, but before it has any effects, the entire crew or Away Team leaves the mission attempt, reseed the dilemma. On the other hand, if the dilemma encounter has begun to resolve when the entire crew or Away Team leaves the attempt, continue resolving the dilemma as if it were being faced by a crew or Away Team with zero members. For example, if you special download The Gift just after revealing Disgraceful Assault, it has had no effects; reseed the dilemma. However, if your ship is destroyed after the first effect of Disgraceful Assault, resolve the rest of the dilemma (including its "discard dilemma").
(This was very recently clarified -- like two months ago? -- because of ambiguity about what to do if Disgraceful Assault blows up your ship on the first effect.)

If the dilemma has already had the effect of killing Q of Borg, the dilemma has begun to have effects. Therefore, it will resolve. (The only question is whether it resolves before or after your ship takes a Cytherians hike, and I think the only supported answer in the rules is "after.")

So, to be extra clear, here's how I'd resolve this whole encounter (note not blue text).

Let's say Cytherians is on the J-25 Cube but blocked by Q of Borg during a scouting attempt where Misinterpreted History is the next seed card. (This seems pretty common.)

1. Misinterpreted History is revealed.

2. Things that happen when a dilemma is revealed (like Squire's Rules stops) happen.

3. Misinterpreted History's first effect is encountered: "Personnel with highest CUNNING OR most Treachery (if any) is killed (opponent's choice)." Opponent inspects entire crew, identifies valid targets (including Q of Borg), and selects Q of Borg to die.

4. Valid responses are allowed here (like Security Sacrifice or Team of Ambassadors), but nobody plays any.

5. Misinterpreted History's first effect resolves: Q of Borg dies.

6. Cytherians' "ship must do nothing but" comes back into force on the ship. Ship leaves scouting attempt, because it's a voluntary action they cannot continue. (It does not yet move away, because the scouting attempt is still active.) Ship and crew are not stopped.

7. The "Reseed After Escapes" rule instructs us that, since Misinterpreted History has already started to have effects (it killed Q), the rest of it must be resolved as if encountered by a zero-member crew. So...

8. Misinterpreted History's second effect is encountered: "To get past requires Law and Archaeology OR Exobiology and 2 Leadership OR a President." The zero-member crew cannot meet these conditions. I can't even think of a valid response to play here, so no valid responses.

10. Misinterpreted History's second effect resolves: the zero-member crew cannot get past.

11. Because the zero-member crew failed to meet a condition, the mission attempt fails. The zero-member crew is stopped (but doesn't really exist so this makes no difference). The actual crew was kicked out of the attempt at Step #6 and so it remains unstopped. Misinterpreted History is reseeded.

12. You, the player, are now free of the scouting attempt and can take other actions. However, you cannot end your execute order phase until you have exhausted the J-25 Cube's usable RANGE fulfilling Cytherians.
 
By Winner of Borg (Stefan Slaby)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
1E European Continental Champion 2023
1E Austrian National Champion 2023
2E Austrian National Champion 2022
1E Borg Region Regional Champion 2023
2E Borg Region Regional Champion 2023
#591369
good to know. thank you :)
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Director of Organized Play
By LORE (Kris Sonsteby)
 - Director of Organized Play
 -  
Architect
1E Andoria Regional Champion 2023
2E Andoria Regional Champion 2023
W.C.T. Chairman's Trophy winner 2014-2015
#591370
Glad I could help. :P

(I seriously have no idea what Jebus is referring to so I defer to smarter people.)
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#591372
BCSWowbagger wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 4:35 pm
JeBuS wrote:@BCSWowbagger @LORE @Professor Scott You guys may remember this situation from July 2020. Has anything changed with Cytherians interactions since then?
I don't remember it, but there's a bunch of stuff from that far back I have no memory of!

(I started writing this post before Professor Scott commented. I largely agree with him.)

I don't think A1 or A2 can be correct, because actions - required says:
"Must do nothing but" means that the affected ship and/or crew cannot initiate or continue any other voluntary actions (cloaking, beaming, attempting, battling, etc.) until the required action is completed, even if that takes more than one turn.
Attempting is a voluntary action that is cut short by any "must do nothing but" effect. Cytherians isn't being encountered for the first time, but its global "must do nothing but" effect returns as soon as Q is gone, which means the affected ship cannot continue the attempt.

That leaves B1 and B2.

I don't think B1 is correct, because I find no support in the rules for "resolve the entire current dilemma before [BAD THING]."

For a few years, there was a ruling that, if you were deprived of all matching personnel during the first effect of a multi-effect dilemma, you resolved the entire dilemma before the attempt failed for lack of matching personnel. That's probably where the idea for B1 came from. However, that ruling never extended to anything else (that I recall) and that ruling is no longer on the books, because the game no longer checks for matching personnel except at the start and end of an attempt.

That pretty much leaves B2: [BAD THING] hits immediately, before the dilemma fully resolves. However, I think the bolded part of B2 is wrong, too:
B2) Cytherians become active immediately, so the attempt ends immediately (just as if Cytherians had been just placed on the ship). if the current dilemma has any steps remaining it gets replaced under the mission.
The bolded sentence can't be right, because:
Clarification: Reseed After Escapes (7.2.6.0.1)
If, just after encountering a dilemma, but before it has any effects, the entire crew or Away Team leaves the mission attempt, reseed the dilemma. On the other hand, if the dilemma encounter has begun to resolve when the entire crew or Away Team leaves the attempt, continue resolving the dilemma as if it were being faced by a crew or Away Team with zero members. For example, if you special download The Gift just after revealing Disgraceful Assault, it has had no effects; reseed the dilemma. However, if your ship is destroyed after the first effect of Disgraceful Assault, resolve the rest of the dilemma (including its "discard dilemma").
(This was very recently clarified -- like two months ago? -- because of ambiguity about what to do if Disgraceful Assault blows up your ship on the first effect.)

If the dilemma has already had the effect of killing Q of Borg, the dilemma has begun to have effects. Therefore, it will resolve. (The only question is whether it resolves before or after your ship takes a Cytherians hike, and I think the only supported answer in the rules is "after.")

So, to be extra clear, here's how I'd resolve this whole encounter (note not blue text).

Let's say Cytherians is on the J-25 Cube but blocked by Q of Borg during a scouting attempt where Misinterpreted History is the next seed card. (This seems pretty common.)

1. Misinterpreted History is revealed.

2. Things that happen when a dilemma is revealed (like Squire's Rules stops) happen.

3. Misinterpreted History's first effect is encountered: "Personnel with highest CUNNING OR most Treachery (if any) is killed (opponent's choice)." Opponent inspects entire crew, identifies valid targets (including Q of Borg), and selects Q of Borg to die.

4. Valid responses are allowed here (like Security Sacrifice or Team of Ambassadors), but nobody plays any.

5. Misinterpreted History's first effect resolves: Q of Borg dies.

6. Cytherians' "ship must do nothing but" comes back into force on the ship. Ship leaves scouting attempt, because it's a voluntary action they cannot continue. (It does not yet move away, because the scouting attempt is still active.) Ship and crew are not stopped.

7. The "Reseed After Escapes" rule instructs us that, since Misinterpreted History has already started to have effects (it killed Q), the rest of it must be resolved as if encountered by a zero-member crew. So...

8. Misinterpreted History's second effect is encountered: "To get past requires Law and Archaeology OR Exobiology and 2 Leadership OR a President." The zero-member crew cannot meet these conditions. I can't even think of a valid response to play here, so no valid responses.

10. Misinterpreted History's second effect resolves: the zero-member crew cannot get past.

11. Because the zero-member crew failed to meet a condition, the mission attempt fails. The zero-member crew is stopped (but doesn't really exist so this makes no difference). The actual crew was kicked out of the attempt at Step #6 and so it remains unstopped. Misinterpreted History is reseeded.

12. You, the player, are now free of the scouting attempt and can take other actions. However, you cannot end your execute order phase until you have exhausted the J-25 Cube's usable RANGE fulfilling Cytherians.
I was actually able to follow this and it actually made sense to me...

Is that a sign I've been playing this archaic game for way too damn long? :P

Yeah, Cytherians active, dilemma resolved (and if applicable, re-seeded), is where I intuitively would have landed with it, but it's nice to see that a) that's correct, and more importantly, b) WHY that's correct.

Thanks, @BCSWowbagger ... you can keep your Rules Master hat for another week... you've met your quota for this week. :wink: :cheersL:
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#591373
I can also follow that reasoning. But part of me has to squint a little because a small voice in the back of my head asks about "sub-actions".

Are the individual sub-actions involved in attempting a mission considered voluntary actions?

Before you say "yes, of course they are", consider the knock-on affect that might occur if all sub-actions that occur during a mission attempt, including but not limited to dilemma resolution, battle, etc, are considered voluntary on the part of the player who is attempting the mission.

The common understanding of the word "voluntary" might conflict with what the game prescribes, if for example, you say that it is "voluntary" for me to move onto the next sentence of a dilemma that says "kill the rest of your away team". If advancing to the next sentence, where my away team is killed, is voluntary, why can't I just say "nope" and gtfo of the mission attempt?

1E isn't like 2E where you "do as much as you can", correct? So, if I cannot choose to do less than an entire dilemma, how could moving onto the next part of the dilemma be "voluntary"?

If all dilemmas are cleared, is it "voluntary" for my away team to solve the mission if they can meet the requirements?

(Are actions that are prescribed by the rules of the game considered "voluntary"?)
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First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#591374
JeBuS wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 6:13 pm Are the individual sub-actions involved in attempting a mission considered voluntary actions?

Before you say "yes, of course they are", consider the knock-on affect that might occur if all sub-actions that occur during a mission attempt, including but not limited to dilemma resolution, battle, etc, are considered voluntary on the part of the player who is attempting the mission.
I had the same thought (although it was "does that mean Q of Borg can skip dilemmas?")

The rulebook describes "mandatory actions" as specifically things cards make you do. So I think rules actions (like "thou shalt attempt the next dilemma" are in a suspiciously similar but distinct-for-these-purposes bucket.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#591376
That's... an interesting hair to split. I'll need to let that simmer for a bit.
AllenGould wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 6:45 pm
JeBuS wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 6:13 pm Are the individual sub-actions involved in attempting a mission considered voluntary actions?

Before you say "yes, of course they are", consider the knock-on affect that might occur if all sub-actions that occur during a mission attempt, including but not limited to dilemma resolution, battle, etc, are considered voluntary on the part of the player who is attempting the mission.
I had the same thought (although it was "does that mean Q of Borg can skip dilemmas?")

The rulebook describes "mandatory actions" as specifically things cards make you do. So I think rules actions (like "thou shalt attempt the next dilemma" are in a suspiciously similar but distinct-for-these-purposes bucket.
 
By Winner of Borg (Stefan Slaby)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
1E European Continental Champion 2023
1E Austrian National Champion 2023
2E Austrian National Champion 2022
1E Borg Region Regional Champion 2023
2E Borg Region Regional Champion 2023
#591383
now you're making me wonder the same thing, for an entirely different reason... Q of Borg says "His ship may ignore required actions" with no mention of timing at all... so, new question: at what speed can Q change his mind?

face check a dilemma, change his mind about ignoring Cytherians, drop out of the attempt, change his mind again? :)
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Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
 - Online OP Coordinator
 -  
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#591384
Winner of Borg wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 7:38 pm now you're making me wonder the same thing, for an entirely different reason... Q of Borg says "His ship may ignore required actions" with no mention of timing at all... so, new question: at what speed can Q change his mind?

face check a dilemma, change his mind about ignoring Cytherians, drop out of the attempt, change his mind again? :)
If you can choose, it would seem to happen at action speed. It would mean the first cytherians would pull you out and you would move, then you could choose to ignore (That is how I would rule). For cytherians to never hit, would would have to just say Ignores required actions
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