[JeBuS]

That would seem to indicate that any "may" skill must be used prior to an action that cannot be interrupted, correct? Is that a viable path forward, if one takes a glance at such skills?

now you're making me wonder the same thing, for an entirely different reason... Q of Borg says "His ship may ignore required actions" with no mention of timing at all... so, new question: at what speed can Q change his mind?

face check a dilemma, change his mind about ignoring Cytherians, drop out of the attempt, change his mind again?

If you can choose, it would seem to happen at action speed. It would mean the first cytherians would pull you out and you would move, then you could choose to ignore (That is how I would rule). For cytherians to never hit, would would have to just say Ignores required actions

[AllenGould]

now you're making me wonder the same thing, for an entirely different reason... Q of Borg says "His ship may ignore required actions" with no mention of timing at all... so, new question: at what speed can Q change his mind?

face check a dilemma, change his mind about ignoring Cytherians, drop out of the attempt, change his mind again?

That's a good lens to look at this through - it makes sense for it to basically be a response: Cytherians says "hey, go move", Q says "nah brah". (Or not, if you choose not to invoke).

But as a thought experiment - suppose you had to pay a cost (say, discard a card from hand) to use Q's ability - how often would folks expect to have to pay?

[JeBuS]

Thinking further on this, I can't see how my statement or @pfti's could be true. Special skills seem to be active / activatable at or near any time. Including before the cards they're on are actually in play.

That would seem to indicate that any "may" skill must be used prior to an action that cannot be interrupted, correct? Is that a viable path forward, if one takes a glance at such skills?

now you're making me wonder the same thing, for an entirely different reason... Q of Borg says "His ship may ignore required actions" with no mention of timing at all... so, new question: at what speed can Q change his mind?

face check a dilemma, change his mind about ignoring Cytherians, drop out of the attempt, change his mind again?

If you can choose, it would seem to happen at action speed. It would mean the first cytherians would pull you out and you would move, then you could choose to ignore (That is how I would rule). For cytherians to never hit, would would have to just say Ignores required actions

[pfti]

Thinking further on this, I can't see how my statement or @pfti's could be true. Special skills seem to be active / activatable at or near any time. Including before the cards they're on are actually in play.

That would seem to indicate that any "may" skill must be used prior to an action that cannot be interrupted, correct? Is that a viable path forward, if one takes a glance at such skills?

If you can choose, it would seem to happen at action speed. It would mean the first cytherians would pull you out and you would move, then you could choose to ignore (That is how I would rule). For cytherians to never hit, would would have to just say Ignores required actions

The skill can always be active, but that is only the ability to take the action to ignore. The skill just gives the potential for action. Everywhere else in the game, "may" happens at action speed.

[JeBuS]

This is getting off into the weeds a bit, but I feel it is very connected to this topic (I promise) because of the "may skills"...

You're saying that a skill gives the potential for action. So let's riff of that concept.

I have some adjacent example questions, which may be more easily answered, but I want to set a baseline. These are things I've seen done, and never really questioned before:
• When can Excalbian Kahless use his skill to gain a skill from a personnel present until end of turn? If using the skill is an action, he can't do it during a mission attempt, correct?
• When can Mezoti use her skill to unstop your Borg present? If using the skill as an action, she can't do it during a mission attempt, correct?
• When can Weyoun 6 use his skill to replace any changeling present selected to die? If it's an action, how can it interrupt some other action causing the changeling to die? W6 doesn't say "just selected to die", so it isn't automatically a valid response, is it?
• When can Thomas Paris change his skill from Treachery to Honor? If using the skill as an action, he can't do it during a mission attempt, correct?
• How about Suna? When is he allowed to download Reflection Therapy? I've seen it used as an escape hatch during mission attempts for 20+ years now. Is this wrong? (I think this is wrong, cuz it's not a , I just never remember that during a game.)

If the card is not yet in play, for example a personnel who says "May report to X", when does the skill become possible to use? (And why at that time?) If "may" happens at action speed, how does a card that's not in play perform an action?

I ask because the rules for how and when you can use a personnel skill are pertinent to the discussion of how and when Q ignores required actions, and potentially when those required actions take precedence once Q's skill becomes inactive.

[AllenGould]

I think we may be even further into the weeds, because Q's ability kinda *has* to be a valid response (to Cytherians saying "get over here"[1]), which is a separate thing from the "may".

[1] I couldn't find a version of the gif I liked enough to attach, but y'all know what voice to use while reading that part.

[pfti]

As I understand them and as I have played them

• Excalbian Kahless: he can't do it during a mission attempt,
• Mezoti: Canot unstop during a mission
• Weyoun 6: I think it counts as a valid response because it directly modifies the selection (this also may be a way that Q works durring a mission attempt since he directly modifies the required action--not sure, but probs the cleanst rules window.
t?
• Thomas PAris: Never been able to do it during a mission attempt
•Suna: Never been an escape hatch. It is a big part of why some downloads are special and some are skill dots. It changes the speed

[pfti]

I think we may be even further into the weeds, because Q's ability kinda *has* to be a valid response (to Cytherians saying "get over here"[1]), which is a separate thing from the "may".

[1] I couldn't find a version of the gif I liked enough to attach, but y'all know what voice to use while reading that part.

I got to the same place responding to Brian-I forgot the Valid response rule in my initial element.
However, if it prevents the cytherians because it is a valid response to the initiation of the card, you cannot turn off ignoring mid attempt since there is nopthing specific to respond to

[AllenGould]

However, if it prevents the cytherians because it is a valid response to the initiation of the card, you cannot turn off ignoring mid attempt since there is nopthing specific to respond to

I'd argue it's a valid response to the required action.

Normally, Cytherians says "move", you move. Then it'll say "move" again, but you don't have RANGE left so nothing happens, and we abstract away the fact that required actions are constantly going "hey, can you do this? You gotta do this if you can." (e.g. if you play something that restores RANGE mid-turn, I think we'd all agree that you'd then have to move the ship again because you can satisfy the requirement again).

The abstraction has been fine in the past, because the required action jumps in before you could do anything else, and once you'd done it you could ignore it for the rest of the turn. But now you can have a case where that required action can become eligible in the middle of some other action, so exactly how often a required action throws itself in the mix matters.

While I'm curious to see what other people think, reading through the required actions section does make it sound like you-the-player take the action. Which inclines me to think that you do it the next time you *could* do that action. And you can't just move a ship mid-mission, so I'm leaning towards the "finish the attempt" position at this point. (Put simply, once Q is gone the next time you can choose an action to take it's gotta be "move the ship".)

[pfti]

However, if it prevents the cytherians because it is a valid response to the initiation of the card, you cannot turn off ignoring mid attempt since there is nopthing specific to respond to

I'd argue it's a valid response to the required action.

Normally, Cytherians says "move", you move. Then it'll say "move" again, but you don't have RANGE left so nothing happens, and we abstract away the fact that required actions are constantly going "hey, can you do this? You gotta do this if you can." (e.g. if you play something that restores RANGE mid-turn, I think we'd all agree that you'd then have to move the ship again because you can satisfy the requirement again).

The abstraction has been fine in the past, because the required action jumps in before you could do anything else, and once you'd done it you could ignore it for the rest of the turn. But now you can have a case where that required action can become eligible in the middle of some other action, so exactly how often a required action throws itself in the mix matters.

While I'm curious to see what other people think, reading through the required actions section does make it sound like you-the-player take the action. Which inclines me to think that you do it the next time you *could* do that action. And you can't just move a ship mid-mission, so I'm leaning towards the "finish the attempt" position at this point. (Put simply, once Q is gone the next time you can choose an action to take it's gotta be "move the ship".)

but valid responses only happen during the initiation of an action, so they cannot happen at valid response speed to an ongoing action except when it starts.

[JeBuS]

@AllenGould that's where I've arrived, too. My brain has just required more reassurance (via the questions above) that it's a logical place to end up.

[AllenGould]

but valid responses only happen during the initiation of an action, so they cannot happen at valid response speed to an ongoing action except when it starts.

True, but I think required actions have to be firing regularly (or some other sort of gamestate check that says "can this ship move? Then it has to move now"), because otherwise I could use tricks to restore RANGE mid-turn and not have to go where I'm supposed to be going.

[pfti]

but valid responses only happen during the initiation of an action, so they cannot happen at valid response speed to an ongoing action except when it starts.

True, but I think required actions have to be firing regularly (or some other sort of gamestate check that says "can this ship move? Then it has to move now"), because otherwise I could use tricks to restore RANGE mid-turn and not have to go where I'm supposed to be going.

The glossary mentions "continuous effects." I assume Cytherians is one of those (especially since the term used to exist specifically to refer to dilemmas entering play). So it doesnt keep firing, it fires once as does not stop. It still enters play/takes effect only once, so that is the only valid response window.

[JeBuS]

The two concepts, "required action" and "continuous effect", do not combine well in my mind. An action has a defined beginning and end. An effect may not.

[JeBuS]

In my mind, the only way I can reconcile the two is to say that Cytherians has the continuous effect of firing off a required action repeatedly, between every other action. And if that is the case, it leads right back to the start: at what point does that action get added?