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By pfti (Jon Carter)
 - Online OP Coordinator
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2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#591439
JeBuS wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:36 pm In my mind, the only way I can reconcile the two is to say that Cytherians has the continuous effect of firing off a required action repeatedly, between every other action. And if that is the case, it leads right back to the start: at what point does that action get added?
Nope, because there is no rule about the timing of required actions that are not responses to other actions. They only stipulate that 1)you cannot end your turn until you do them and 2) you cannot use the cards for other things (except those stipulated by the rules).
Required actions are usually indicated by "must" or "must do nothing but." For example, if Anya is present where Salia has just been randomly selected, Anya must replace her. Responses to a required action work normally.

You may not end your Execute Orders step until all your ships and personnel have completed all actions they are required and able to complete. Cards may not initiate actions that make it impossible for them to take an action they are required to take. For example, if a Federation ship and crew is at Samaritan Snare, they may not move away before attempting the mission.

A required action that affects a ship automatically affects its crew. "Full speed" and "normal speed" mean a ship must use all available RANGE each turn to accomplish a required action, even if this places the ship at a hazard such as Gaps In Normal Space.

"Must do nothing but" means that the affected ship and/or crew cannot initiate or continue any other voluntary actions (cloaking, beaming, attempting, battling, etc.) until the required action is completed, even if that takes more than one turn. (Outside personnel and equipment not yet compelled by the required action may report to or board it, but are then compelled. They may not use the affected ship's transporters.) The ship and crew may defend themselves in battle and use skills to cure/nullify cards affecting the ship, since those are not voluntarily initiated actions.
Nothing is firing constantly saying you must move. There is just a constant effect that prevents other actions and a check before you end your turn that you did the thing you have to

Cytherians in practices says. Your ship and crew may not take action exept moving towards the far end of the spaceline. You cannot end your turn until you have taken such an action.

Even under required actions, you have to take the action of moving the ship. Cytherians does not make this happen.
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Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
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2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#591440
JeBuS wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:18 pm The two concepts, "required action" and "continuous effect", do not combine well in my mind. An action has a defined beginning and end. An effect may not.
Your instincts (or even plain text readings) have no bearing on the rules.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#591444
I'm not trying to be difficult, but... this results in circular logic. I have to think about how better to phrase that, but your last posts put us back to the point where we ask the original questions.
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#591449
Another angle would be that required actions jump in as responses when you try to do something else. (Kind of a weird Computer Crash / floating counter situation). I don't think it substantially changes the answer, beyond reducing the number of times the "required action" fires.

"Continuous action" sounds more like a rules setting effect, but it still hits the problem of what happens when the rule kicks in mid-effect? (And "continuous" and "action" don't feel like things that go well together.)
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#591454
I'm trying to organize my thoughts here, so forgive me for restating things.

• An action is an operation that a player performs during the game.
• An action may not be interrupted except by an action that is a valid response or an action that suspends play.
• Required Actions prevent a voluntary action from continuing.
• Mission Attempts are voluntary group actions.
• Are sub-actions within a voluntary group action considered voluntary, even if there is no way for a player to opt-out of participating in them?
• Are sub-actions within a dilemma considered voluntary actions, even if there is no way for a player to opt-out of participating in them?
• If using a "may skill" is an action, how can Q of Borg use his skill to ignore Cytherians if he is in a non-interruptable mission attempt action, then immediately affected by the required action rule?
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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#591458
JeBuS wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:05 pm
• If using a "may skill" is an action, how can Q of Borg use his skill to ignore Cytherians if he is in a non-interruptable mission attempt action, then immediately affected by the required action rule?
1. Scouting attempt is ongoing - voluntary action
1.1 Cytherians is revealed and placed on ship - mandatory sub-action (once you start the mission attempt, you have to face dilemmas if you have anybody left)
1.2 Cytherians creates a mandatory action that overrides the voluntary action of the mission attempt.
1.2.1 Q of Borg MAY use his skill as a voluntary action to ignore 1.2 since it's a valid response.
1.2.1a If he does NOT, go to 1.2. Scouting attempt ends, mandatory move action is on the board and the player cannot end their turn until that action is taken.
1.2.1b. If he DOES, 1.2 is ignored.
1.3 Reveal Misinterpreted History
1.3.1 Opponent Selects Q of Borg to die
1.3.2 Q of Borg is Discarded. Since his special skill is no longer in play, 1.2 kicks back in at this point, goto 1.2.1a.
1.3.3 Misinterpreted History goes back under the mission for reasons @BCSWowbagger outlined above.

Net result: Scouting attempt over, MH Back under the mission, Cytherians on the Borg Ship, and it's time to start trucking.

At least that's how my brain processes it.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#591460
I have other questions, but wanted to get this one out there:
Armus wrote:1.2.1 Q of Borg MAY use his skill as a voluntary action to ignore 1.2 since it's a valid response.
What makes this a valid response?
A valid response must specifically relate to (modify, cancel, nullify, or prevent) the action.
I assume it's this entry of the glossary. Should "ignore" be added to that?
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
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#591463
JeBuS wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:42 pm I have other questions, but wanted to get this one out there:
Armus wrote:1.2.1 Q of Borg MAY use his skill as a voluntary action to ignore 1.2 since it's a valid response.
What makes this a valid response?
A valid response must specifically relate to (modify, cancel, nullify, or prevent) the action.
I assume it's this entry of the glossary. Should "ignore" be added to that?
The ability to ignore a required action isn't a valid response to getting hit with a required action?

Seems pretty absurd to me...

I can argue that one could slide it under Modify (YOU HAVE TO DO THIS! No I don't), but adding ignore isn't the worst idea either. I could go either way with it.
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Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
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2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#591466
JeBuS wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:42 pm I have other questions, but wanted to get this one out there:
Armus wrote:1.2.1 Q of Borg MAY use his skill as a voluntary action to ignore 1.2 since it's a valid response.
What makes this a valid response?
A valid response must specifically relate to (modify, cancel, nullify, or prevent) the action.
I assume it's this entry of the glossary. Should "ignore" be added to that?
Ignoring is clearly modifying.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#591467
pfti wrote:Ignoring is clearly modifying
I'm willing to accept that ignoring falls under modifying. But I wouldn't hang my hat on that being clear.
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By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
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#591472
There seems to be some debate as to whether or not you continue the scouting attempt after QoB dies. I believe this is explicitly covered under the required actions entry in the glossary. Bold emphasis mine.
"Must do nothing but" means that the affected ship and/or crew cannot initiate or continue any other voluntary actions (cloaking, beaming, attempting, battling, etc.) until the required action is completed, even if that takes more than one turn.
So that being said IMO the sequence laid out by BCSWowbagger on the first page of this thread seems correct.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#591474
The part you quoted is why I have asked if each sub-action of a mission attempt is also a voluntary action. (Even though you have no choice, as a player, about whether or not you continue to the next sub-action of an attempt. The very opposite of "voluntary".)
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
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1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#591478
These are a few of the rules that continuously circle around my brain as I try to align the various interpretations and examples. I haven't yet made them all fit.
You may not interrupt an action by another action, unless the second action:
• is a valid response to the first action or one of its sub-actions; or
• explicitly "suspends play" (according to a card text or rule).
Each dilemma encounter is a sub-action of the mission attempt (which is a group action)
the current action is the active sub-action, not any of the group actions the sub-action may be a part of
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