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By Enabran
 - Beta Quadrant
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2E Austrian National Second Runner-Up 2022
#592468
From James:

Rulebook 6.5.3:

Downloading does not count as your normal card play, but you must still follow all the normal rules for playing a card, such as reporting restrictions.

and 6.5.3.0.1 is explicit about what this means for outposts:

When downloading a Facility into play, you must meet all requirements for building that Facility at the location where you are playing it. For example, you may not download Primary Supply Depot with Establish Dominion Foothold, because that facility must be seeded, not built. You may instead download Remote Supply Depot, but only if the location is a non-homeworld mission with a [Dom] affiliation icon where you have no other facilities and you have the required [Dom] ENGINEER present to build it. This is, of course, just a restatement of what was already said in the rules — you must follow the normal rules for playing a card when downloading, except when specifically overruled by gametext.
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#592489
Dukat wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 2:45 pm But doesn't it override normal requirements?

EDF does not require a DOM mission (!) and it says 'download there' - with no further requirements named.
Unfortunately, EDF doesn't need to list the requirements, because the Outpost already has those requirements.

In order for EDF to override the "matching mission" and "ENGINEER present" requirement, it would have to specifically override them, by them, in its text, similar to how I Miss This Office specifically overrides the ENGINEER requirement. So, to do what you have in mind, EDF would have to say something like:
Seeds or plays on a mission in Alpha or Delta Quadrant if none of your [Dom] cards have been in that quadrant yet this game. If your Dominion personnel subsequently complete that mission, you may download a Dominion facility (ignoring ENGINEER requirement, even at a non-[DOM] mission) with up to five different Equipment cards there; score points (discard objective). You may complete this objective only once in each quadrant. [10]
Instead, it passes over those requirements in silence, so those requirements remain.

Sorry about that. Rest assured that this rule is annoying Test For Weakness players like me just as much as it's annoying Establish Dominion Foothold players. (Probably for the best, since it keeps our shenanigans from getting TOO shenanigan-y. :) )
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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#592490
BCSWowbagger wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:45 pm
Dukat wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 2:45 pm But doesn't it override normal requirements?

EDF does not require a DOM mission (!) and it says 'download there' - with no further requirements named.
Unfortunately, EDF doesn't need to list the requirements, because the Outpost already has those requirements.

In order for EDF to override the "matching mission" and "ENGINEER present" requirement, it would have to specifically override them, by them, in its text, similar to how I Miss This Office specifically overrides the ENGINEER requirement. So, to do what you have in mind, EDF would have to say something like:
Seeds or plays on a mission in Alpha or Delta Quadrant if none of your [Dom] cards have been in that quadrant yet this game. If your Dominion personnel subsequently complete that mission, you may download a Dominion facility (ignoring ENGINEER requirement, even at a non-[DOM] mission) with up to five different Equipment cards there; score points (discard objective). You may complete this objective only once in each quadrant. [10]
Instead, it passes over those requirements in silence, so those requirements remain.

Sorry about that. Rest assured that this rule is annoying Test For Weakness players like me just as much as it's annoying Establish Dominion Foothold players. (Probably for the best, since it keeps our shenanigans from getting TOO shenanigan-y. :) )
Wait a sec... how does Test for Weakness even work then?
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
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#592491
Armus wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:48 pm Wait a sec... how does Test for Weakness even work then?
You jig over to a [FED] mission in the Neutral Zone where you currently have no facility and fire the download. Which means you can never Test For Weakness at your outpost mission, and you must have Neutral Zone missions with the [FED] icon.

No [Fed] ENGINEER is required (which would be nearly impossible) because Earth Outpost has special outpost text that doesn't require one (for precisely this reason).
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
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#592498
BCSWowbagger wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:52 pm
Armus wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:48 pm Wait a sec... how does Test for Weakness even work then?
You jig over to a [FED] mission in the Neutral Zone where you currently have no facility and fire the download. Which means you can never Test For Weakness at your outpost mission, and you must have Neutral Zone missions with the [FED] icon.

No [Fed] ENGINEER is required (which would be nearly impossible) because Earth Outpost has special outpost text that doesn't require one (for precisely this reason).
Why does my side of the mission need a [Fed] icon if it's coming in under my opponent's control. Wouldn't the relevant icon be the blue bar on their side of the mission?

I don't think it matters in this specific case, as I can't think of any NZ missions that don't have Mirror icons, but if, say, Compromised Mission was a legal target, would Test for Weakness work there?
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
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#592501
Armus wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 6:19 pm I don't think it matters in this specific case, as I can't think of any NZ missions that don't have Mirror icons, but if, say, Compromised Mission was a legal target, would Test for Weakness work there?
I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that (1) as you note, it isn't relevant because there's no such mission in the Neutral Zone, and (2) asymmetric mission icons notoriously give me a headache.

However, should the issue ever arise on a new card, rest assured the Rules Committee and I would go nose to grindstone and work out the correct answer!
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
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#592504
BCSWowbagger wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 6:26 pm
Armus wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 6:19 pm I don't think it matters in this specific case, as I can't think of any NZ missions that don't have Mirror icons, but if, say, Compromised Mission was a legal target, would Test for Weakness work there?
I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that (1) as you note, it isn't relevant because there's no such mission in the Neutral Zone, and (2) asymmetric mission icons notoriously give me a headache.

However, should the issue ever arise on a new card, rest assured the Rules Committee and I would go nose to grindstone and work out the correct answer!
Ok, different question: why can't I do this thing at my outpost mission (assuming it's a [Fed] [1E-Rom] mission)?
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
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#592505
Armus wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:19 pm Ok, different question: why can't I do this thing at my outpost mission (assuming it's a [Fed] [1E-Rom] mission)?
Check the rule that limits multiple facilities at the same location and you will discover your answer. (It's one of those things that only jumps out at you when you're looking for it, but it's clear as day when you are.)
 
 - Alpha Quadrant
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#592735
Enabran wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 2:24 pm From James:

Rulebook 6.5.3:

Downloading does not count as your normal card play, but you must still follow all the normal rules for playing a card, such as reporting restrictions.

and 6.5.3.0.1 is explicit about what this means for outposts:

When downloading a Facility into play, you must meet all requirements for building that Facility at the location where you are playing it. For example, you may not download Primary Supply Depot with Establish Dominion Foothold, because that facility must be seeded, not built. You may instead download Remote Supply Depot, but only if the location is a non-homeworld mission with a [Dom] affiliation icon where you have no other facilities and you have the required [Dom] ENGINEER present to build it. This is, of course, just a restatement of what was already said in the rules — you must follow the normal rules for playing a card when downloading, except when specifically overruled by gametext.
So... how does Subjugate Planet's download work?
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
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#592737
I think that rule is jacked up. If a card says download a facility HERE then that should be all you need to do that.

This is probably one of those things where Design and Rules have done different things at different times over the last quarter century and not everything lines up pretty.

If that rule was created after 1998, then the card text of EDF and Subjugate Planet might be legacy language and we either need to change the rule or hit the cards with a clarifying errata to make them work as intended.
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
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Community Contributor
#592742
FranklinKenter wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 10:30 pm So... how does Subjugate Planet's download work?
It works by implication.

That is, if there is no possible way for gametext to have any effect if the general rule is followed, then the gametext implicitly (and necessarily) overrides that rule.

This isn't me trying to wriggle out of a corner. It's what Decipher said as of October 1999's Glossary 1.6:
Downloading Facilities: When a card allows you to download a facility
to a location, you must meet all normal requirements for building
(playing) the facility, unless specifically overridden by the card text.
These requirements include a non-homeworld, matching affiliation
mission for outposts, no other facility controlled by you at the location
and any play requirements in the facility’s game text (such as an
appropriate ENGINEER for building an outpost). Examples:

• You may not download Primary Supply Depot with Establish
Dominion Foothold, because that outpost may only be seeded, not
built. You may download Remote Supply Depot only to a nonhomeworld, [Dom] mission where you have no other facility and
where you have a Dominion ENGINEER.

• Subjugate Planet specifically states that you may download
Remote Supply Depot to the non-homeworld, non-[Dom] planet
mission targeted by the objective. This overrides the matching
affiliation requirement, but not the requirement for a Dominion
ENGINEER.
(The current rule is pretty obviously based on this passage, although the text has morphed over time. Decipher originally published this ruling in the July 1999 CRD.)

"Implied override" does not strike me as an ideal way of doing business -- I prefer my overrides explicit -- but it is what it is. I suspect that the real reason Subjugate Planet is worded that way is the reason Armus suggests: When it published The Dominion, Decipher itself hadn't made up its mind about how downloading facilities ought to work, and then had to make a decision that would support both cards.

Nevertheless, they did make a decision, addressing both these cards specifically, within six months of their release, and that decision has stood ever since.

That said, I'm open to arguments (and research) in support of changing it.
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By Exon
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E Risa Regional Champion 2023
#610728
Another question about Establish Dominion Foothold... If I complete the objective, but can't download a facility, do I still score the 10 points?
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 - Gamma Quadrant
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#610729
Exon wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 5:50 pm Another question about Establish Dominion Foothold... If I complete the objective, but can't download a facility, do I still score the 10 points?
Yes. The may download and the score points are separate (separated by a semi-colon even) .
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