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By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
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#597420
Vic Fontaine (Dogs of War)
any

If a card refers to a characteristic preceded by the word "any" (or "a", "an", or "one"), it refers to a card with that characteristic. For example, "any disruptor" includes Varon-T Disruptor, Klingon Disruptor Rifle, and Breen CRM114, while "Any Emblem card" includes Emblem of the Empire and Emblem of the Alliance (but not cards displaying the icons representing those emblems) and "any Odo" can refer to Odo, Curzon Odo, Overseer Odo, and Odo Founder.

When a card refers to a specific card title without a modifier such as "any", it refers only to a card of that exact title (or a member of that card title group). For example, Investigate Coup requires Tomalak and cannot be solved by Ambassador Tomalak.
Does "any" in regards to personnel refer to just the card title or does it include persona/lore references? And how does that work with first names and last names? I don't see "lore" as a legit reference for "any" of something in the glossary entry. Though this seems to be implied because "Breen CRM114" does not have disruptor in the title even though it is called "any disruptor".

In regards to "Any O'Brien" for example:

Falcon does not have Miles in his title, but he does in his Lore as a bold face persona. It would seem this is any O'Brien.

Since Vic Fontaine only refers to family names and not first/given names, I assume any person with those names will suffice, even if they are not the DS9 "command crew"?

Jake Sisko or Jennifer Sisko is any Sisko?
Kira Taban is any Kira?
etc............
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#597442
Ah, see.... you loked under "any", where of course the answer in under the RUlebook Clarification for Personas...
An "any" requirement can be met by any personnel with the given characteristic. For example, only the card titled Pel could meet the Pel requirement on Tulaberry Wine Negotiations, but any card identified in title or lore as "Quark" (including Deputy Quark, Mr. Quark, and Quark Son of Keldar) can meet the "any Quark" requirement.
That at least clarifies the Falcon/O'Brien part.
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Community Contributor
#597450
The place you really want to look is under characteristic. The entry for any basically just tells you that "any X" means "card with X characteristic." What counts as having X characteristic is all defined in the characteristic rule:

https://www.trekcc.org/op/1e_rulebook/#CHARACTERISTICS

Takket wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 1:31 pm Does "any" in regards to personnel refer to just the card title or does it include persona/lore references? And how does that work with first names and last names? I don't see "lore" as a legit reference for "any" of something in the glossary entry. Though this seems to be implied because "Breen CRM114" does not have disruptor in the title even though it is called "any disruptor".
I don't understand this paragraph, so I'm going to skip it, if that is alright. I think I can answer the other questions, and hopefully that will shed light on the root question I failed to grok.
Since Vic Fontaine only refers to family names and not first/given names, I assume any person with those names will suffice, even if they are not the DS9 "command crew"?
Yes. Any personnel whose card lore clearly identifies that personnel as being a Sisko, a Kira, Quark, an O'Brien, Odo, a Dax, a Bashir, Nog, or Worf can count toward Vic Fontaine (Dogs of War) points. Jake OR Jennifer will suffice for a Sisko, Kira Taban is a KIra, Yedrin Dax counts for Dax, and Richard Bashir (not a card yet) would count for a Bashir.
Falcon does not have Miles in his title, but he does in his Lore as a bold face persona. It would seem this is any O'Brien.
This, however, is not correct. Falcon's lore says that he "took on the appearance" of O'Brien, not that he is O'Brien. Put another way: Falcon is not an O'Brien for the same reason that Patrol Ship is not a shuttlecraft.

There was an article a while back that discussed this (briefly), and there was some more detailed discussion in the forum thread attached to it. Hopefully that can shed a bit more light on the matter.

Sorry about any confusion caused.
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#597463
BCSWowbagger wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 11:33 pm
Falcon does not have Miles in his title, but he does in his Lore as a bold face persona. It would seem this is any O'Brien.
This, however, is not correct. Falcon's lore says that he "took on the appearance" of O'Brien, not that he is O'Brien. Put another way: Falcon is not an O'Brien for the same reason that Patrol Ship is not a shuttlecraft.
So to be clear, despite being a persona of Miles O'Brien, that doesn't qualify as "any O'Brien"?

I'd argue he counts for two reasons.

1 - by being a persona (bold) that is the lore telling us he *is* Miles O'Brien.

2 - the other part of characteristcs - disguises count. So if Selok can be a Vulcan because she apepared to be one, Falcon should count as any O'Brien.
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
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#597502
boromirofborg wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 10:26 am So to be clear, despite being a persona of Miles O'Brien, that doesn't qualify as "any O'Brien"?
Correct. A precious few versions of a given persona are not actually that character, and therefore do not have the in-game characteristic of being that character.
1 - by being a persona (bold) that is the lore telling us he *is* Miles O'Brien.
By this rule, Ezri Dax would count as "any Jadzia," which (to my mind) is clearly incorrect.
2 - the other part of characteristcs - disguises count. So if Selok can be a Vulcan because she apepared to be one, Falcon should count as any O'Brien.
Actively disguising yourself as something does count. Merely sharing an appearance does not. Otherwise, Frank and Eli Hollander would count as "any Data", and Mordock and Mendon would each count as one another.

At least, that is the current ruling. I'm not certain it's the perfect rule, but I think we get closer to the mark every time we iterate on it (and the characteristics rule has been iterated a lot since October 1999!).
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#597507
BCSWowbagger wrote:By this rule, Ezri Dax would count as "any Jadzia," which (to my mind) is clearly incorrect.
I mean, Jadzia clearly counts as "any Curzon" for Blood Oath purposes. ;)
And I think I could argue that Exzi should count for trek-sense purposes, because she is Jadzia for most purposes.

(I'm not disagreeing with you on the reading of the rules, I'm enjoying debating the rules should be though.)

Setting aside Trills/Tuvixes/Other multi-people personas for a second, I think that being a persona *should* count as "any" for the simple reason that the core wording is that they are this person.
Looking at other cards, there's some that I am honestly not sure of now:

Torias - Pilot embodied in the human Julian Bashir

Lela - Was embodied in the Bajoran Kira Nerys

Joran - embodied in the human Benjamin Sisko

Locutus of Borg - The knowledge and experience of the human - Jean-Luc Picard - is part of us now."

Anastasia Komananov - Kira Nerys, with a Russian accent.
(This one is a yes to me, but feels weird that Kira is but the other's aren't.)

The big question there is does "embodied in" count as being "any", as well as Locus's particular phrasing.



One I would have thought yes, but clearly no now:

Duchamps

Professor Honey Bare - Seismologist replaced by an image of Jadzia Dax

Dr. Noah - replaced by the transporter pattern of Benjamin Sisko
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By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
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#597529
Yeah the holograms from that DS9 episode just makes things very weird for 1E rules here. Falcon really isn't much different than if I wanted into a holodeck and said "computer, make me a hologram that looks like Picard but has the personality of my sister". It would seem silly to say that this person is "any Picard" because other than using the physical template, nothing else about this hologram even remotely engenders the character of Picard.

But at the same time Falcon still has to be a persona of Miles O'Brien because the computer was using the holosuite to store the real O'Brien's appearance while his mind was everywhere else. Falcon and Miles O'Brien can't both be in play because they are the same person physically, if not mentally.

I understand the rule, and I believe it is correct. At the same time I'd be hard pressed as a TD to ever believe Falcon is not "any O'Brien" if this came up in a tournament (if I had'nt started this thread!).

I think part of that confusion, at least for me, is that the characteristics entry doesn't talk about "people that look like a specific person but really aren't that person". I certainly don't need the rulebook to tell me that Nick Locarno is not "any Tom Paris" because that's just the same actor playing two different people. BUt those DS9 holograms... by the nature of that episode are just... weird.

Should the characteristic rule say "appearance" does not count as having that characteristic for Falcon? Okay fine, but what about Anastasia Komananov? She literally just says she is Kira Nerys.
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By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
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#597828
So, this might belong in the "updating the card database thread" but if you go to Vic's page and click on "any <personnel>", some of the results should be removed if they are incorrect:

Dr. Noah is not "any Sisko"
Joran, I don't think, is any Sisko?

not any Kira.......
Anastasia Komananov
Lela??????

not any O'Brien
Falcon

not any Dax
Professor Honey Bare

not any Bashir
Torias??????

not any Worf
Duchamps
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Regent
Community Contributor
#609131
Takket wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 5:01 pm Bump............

Is Worf and Jadzia "any Dax" for Vic's special skill? I think yes because "any" isn't just the card title, it is the characteristic, and Jadzia has the characteristic of being Jadzia Dax?

Likewise is Jake and Nog "any Sisko" for the same reason?
Yes to all.
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#609135
Armus wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 5:15 pm
eberlems wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 5:12 pm Is this any Sisko?
No.
Do you have a source for why not? The entry for "any" gives "any Emblem", which includes cards with Emblem in title, and Varon-T counts as "any disruptor" via title only.
 
By Ashigaru
 - Alpha Quadrant
 -  
#609136
Takket wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 7:33 pm
Should the characteristic rule say "appearance" does not count as having that characteristic for Falcon? Okay fine, but what about Anastasia Komananov? She literally just says she is Kira Nerys.
Honestly, that's the reason I didn't like that ruling, because it made her the odd hologram out, and it just felt so weird to say that none of the Our Man Bashir holograms count as any... EXCEPT for holoKira.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Community Contributor
#609137
AllenGould wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 7:43 pm
Armus wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 5:15 pm
eberlems wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2023 5:12 pm Is this any Sisko?
No.
Do you have a source for why not? The entry for "any" gives "any Emblem", which includes cards with Emblem in title, and Varon-T counts as "any disruptor" via title only.
Source: Because that's really dumb.

... which means it probably *is* a Sisko, but if so, where's the context rule when you need it?
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