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By Jono (Sean O'Reilly)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Grand Nagus
#631332
JeBuS wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 11:29 pm Converting card draws doesn't appear to be one of the things you can do during the seed phase.

But... the rulebook says the seed phases have ended prior to drawing your opening hand.

So... I see a crack.
You need to read the new Current Rulings which state "You cannot draw cards without a hand." That means until you have seven cards in your opening hand, you cannot draw cards which you can turn into downloads.
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 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#631334
JeBuS wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 11:29 pm But... the rulebook says the seed phases have ended prior to drawing your opening hand.

So... I see a crack.
It's still listed in the seed phase section.
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By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2024
#631341
Jono wrote:You need to read the new Current Rulings which state "You cannot draw cards without a hand." That means until you have seven cards in your opening hand, you cannot draw cards which you can turn into downloads.
You're probably correct. Except... that's specifically for things that happen in the seed phase. See below...
AllenGould wrote:It's still listed in the seed phase section.
I don't think that matters, because it literally states the seed phases are over.


Basically, if the rules state that the seed phase is over before doing it, then the act of drawing your hand cannot be a seed phase action.
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 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#631349
So, there's a Secret Third Phase between Seed and Play? :shrug:

That would mean you can also do all your downloads immediately in the Secret Window, since GQ won't apply yet.
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By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2024
#631352
So, my opinion is that we probably don't want to have convert-to-downloads happening with the opening hand. Mostly because, I don't have even an inkling what the repercussions would be. Doesn't seem like it'd be healthy to expose that crack at the moment.

My suggestion would be for Rules to make a quick change to 4.4.2 to swap the order of sentences / phrases.
The facility phase continues until both players announce they have no more cards to seed by saying "pass." Once both players have passed, show your opponent any seed cards you did not use (including unseeded Sites), then place them out-of-play. Both players shuffle their draw decks and place them face-down on the table, then draw seven concealed cards to form a starting hand. The seed phases are complete. Your table may look something like this:
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
1E North American Continental Semi-Finalist 2024
#631369
Dukat wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 6:04 am Hi guys,

is it possible to convert one of the card draws that forms the starting hand, into a [Ref] download using Tribunal of Q?
No.

This ruling is official.

I'll see whether we need anything else in the rules to make this stick but I wanted to put a stop to it immediately in case anyone has an event soon where they were considering using it.
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By Dukat (Andreas Rheinländer)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Semi-Finalist 2024
1E German National Runner-Up 2024
#631387
Why not simply add a line to the Rulesbook?

Original:
The facility phase continues until both players announce they have no more cards to seed by saying "pass." Once both players have passed, the seed phases are complete. Show your opponent any seed cards you did not use (including unseeded Sites), then place them out-of-play. Both players shuffle their draw decks and place them face-down on the table, then draw seven concealed cards to form a starting hand. Your table may look something like this:

Instead, use this:
The facility phase continues until both players announce they have no more cards to seed by saying "pass." Once both players have passed, the seed phases are complete. Show your opponent any seed cards you did not use (including unseeded Sites), then place them out-of-play. Both players shuffle their draw decks and place them face-down on the table, then draw seven concealed cards to form a starting hand (none of them may be (in any way) converted to a download of any kind). Your table may look something like this:
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By DataNoh (Chris Lund)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
ibbles  Trek Masters Tribbles Champion 2023
#631391
Jono wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 12:57 pm You need to read the new Current Rulings which state "You cannot draw cards without a hand." That means until you have seven cards in your opening hand, you cannot draw cards which you can turn into downloads.
Where this rule? I don't understand what it means or what the purpose is. My hand only has seven cards because I drew them. Wouldn't such a rule prevent me from ever drawing my starting hand?
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
#631397
Ashigaru wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 8:27 am What it means is that until you have your opening hand, effects which would let you draw a card won't work. (The interaction that triggered the change was seeding Strategic Base on Make New Home, then using A New Earth to download an outpost, thus drawing 3 cards before your opening hand. You can't do that now.
Technically, you never could. The whole point was to make sure it was clear that you couldn't.
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By Jono (Sean O'Reilly)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Grand Nagus
#631425
DataNoh wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 8:13 am
Jono wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2024 12:57 pm You need to read the new Current Rulings which state "You cannot draw cards without a hand." That means until you have seven cards in your opening hand, you cannot draw cards which you can turn into downloads.
Where this rule? I don't understand what it means or what the purpose is. My hand only has seven cards because I drew them. Wouldn't such a rule prevent me from ever drawing my starting hand?
Check the Current Rulings PDF which is linked to under First Edition.

The rule means until you have a starting hand (which you form after the seed phase) ... you cannot use any game text to draw cards. And because you cannot draw cards until after you form your starting hand, you also cannot use game text that lets you turn downloads in card draws or card draws into downloads.

The issue some people are having is the phrase "draw seven cards to form a starting hand." That does not mean the same thing as a "card draw" during the game. It just means you start the game with seven cards period. It could also be written as "shuffle your draw deck and then take the top seven cards of it to form a starting hand."
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