Check out the trials and troubles of the first Will of the Collective, where the community designed a card for the first time!
User avatar
Ambassador
By Linkan (Torbjörn Lindquist)
 - Ambassador
 -  
Architect
#11476
I was doing some thinking about how Consume me would interact with tragic turn. Lets see if I got this straight

1. Consume me is played as first dilemma, and so is placed on top of its owners dilemma pile.

2. Tragic Turn is revealed and 2 dilemmas are consumed.

3. The first dilemma consumed is Consume me, and a personnel is killed. But since Tragic Turn is not on top of the mission yet, we are still paying the cost to play it, the "When a personnel at this mission..." text does not trigger.

Am I correct in my reasoning here?
User avatar
 
By Chewie (Adam Hegarty)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#11535
I don't think 'Consume Me' will see play in TT piles for two reasons. 1) Consuming is a cost of Tragic Turn and happens before the placing on mission (Note that the text for consume comes before anything else and as such happens first). 2) When consumed you aren't facing it.


ps. Has the design team ever though of putting the consume at the end of a dilemma so if negated earlier you don't have to pay it? Just thinking out loud.
User avatar
 
By Keller
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#11542
Chewie wrote:I don't think 'Consume Me' will see play in TT piles for two reasons . . . 2) When consumed you aren't facing it.
reread tragic turn
User avatar
Second Edition Design Manager
By The Guardian (Richard New)
 - Second Edition Design Manager
 -  
#11565
Keller wrote:
Chewie wrote:I don't think 'Consume Me' will see play in TT piles for two reasons . . . 2) When consumed you aren't facing it.
reread tragic turn
Agreed, but is Tragic Turn's text active when it is Consuming or does that come later? If it is already active, Consume could not be considered a cost. If it comes later, is anyone really facing Tragic Turn? Could you Escape from Consume Me!'s kill as you are not facing a dilemma? Not to mention, Original Thinker Kirk is supposed to affect only dilemmas you are about to face. Dilemmas like Tragic Turn are never faced (as a response to that discussion). That also means Tox Uthat is useless against it (ignoring the obvious problem that you can't just respond to a dilemma whenever you want anyway as per the Guardian of the Hive/the-end-of-the-sentence-respose-ruling-is-just-plain-nonsense discussion of a few years ago that everybody seems to always forget).

Okay, so there is alot going on there. (1) Which dilemmas do we face and which dilemmas do we not? (2) Is any dilemma being faced yet if only the Consume cost is being paid? (3) How powerful is Tox Uthat if you can only truly respond to a dilemma when it tells you to do something?
User avatar
 
By ikeya (David Kuck)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#11580
Consume has never been a cost, but has been an effect.

If it were a cost, I would not be able to play Tragic Turn (for example) with no dilemmas left in my dilemma pile, but I can.
User avatar
Second Edition Design Manager
By The Guardian (Richard New)
 - Second Edition Design Manager
 -  
#11582
ikeya wrote:Consume has never been a cost, but has been an effect.

If it were a cost, I would not be able to play Tragic Turn (for example) with no dilemmas left in my dilemma pile, but I can.
If so, I was proceeding from a false assumption, which invalidates only part of the questions. (And for some reason, probably due to my increasing insanity, Consume being a cost and and effect both rang true in my mind. Obviously that cannot be. I will say that I have not found reference to it being a cost in the rules and it certainly seems more logical to me to be an effect, but in this game that is not a guarantee. Someone saying it was a cost just sounds like it could be right.) Proceeding from the assumption that it is an effect, I can still ask if the rest of the text is active and I can still ask if you are ever really facing a dilemma like Tragic Turn, so that you could Escape from Consume Me!'s kill. And my concerns about the Tox Uthat are also still valid.
User avatar
 
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#11594
The Guardian wrote:
ikeya wrote:Consume has never been a cost, but has been an effect.

If it were a cost, I would not be able to play Tragic Turn (for example) with no dilemmas left in my dilemma pile, but I can.
If so, I was proceeding from a false assumption, which invalidates only part of the questions. (And for some reason, probably due to my increasing insanity, Consume being a cost and and effect both rang true in my mind. Obviously that cannot be. I will say that I have not found reference to it being a cost in the rules and it certainly seems more logical to me to be an effect, but in this game that is not a guarantee. Someone saying it was a cost just sounds like it could be right.) Proceeding from the assumption that it is an effect, I can still ask if the rest of the text is active and I can still ask if you are ever really facing a dilemma like Tragic Turn, so that you could Escape from Consume Me!'s kill. And my concerns about the Tox Uthat are also still valid.
You face the dilemma from the first sentence to the last sentence of gametext. Placing TT on the mission does not stop your personnel from facing it. Resolving the last line of text and moving on to the next dilemma does.
User avatar
 
By Keller
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#11609
The Guardian wrote:If it comes later, is anyone really facing Tragic Turn?
yes
The Guardian wrote:Could you Escape from Consume Me!'s kill as you are not facing a dilemma?
you are always facing a dilemma when this card's kill happens, just not the dilemma being consumed, but that doesn't matter. you can escape as you are facing SOME dilemma
The Guardian wrote:Not to mention, Original Thinker Kirk is supposed to affect only dilemmas you are about to face. Dilemmas like Tragic Turn are never faced (as a response to that discussion).
yes it is
The Guardian wrote: That also means Tox Uthat is useless against it (ignoring the obvious problem that you can't just respond to a dilemma whenever you want anyway as per the Guardian of the Hive/the-end-of-the-sentence-respose-ruling-is-just-plain-nonsense discussion of a few years ago that everybody seems to always forget).
see above
The Guardian wrote:Okay, so there is alot going on there. (1) Which dilemmas do we face and which dilemmas do we not?
you face any dilemma revealed from the dilemma stack, or any dilemma you are specifically told to "face" by a game effect
The Guardian wrote:(2) Is any dilemma being faced yet if only the Consume cost is being paid?
yes
The Guardian wrote:(3) How powerful is Tox Uthat if you can only truly respond to a dilemma when it tells you to do something?
you can do it when the dilemma is revealed, before the dilemma does anything.
User avatar
Second Edition Design Manager
By The Guardian (Richard New)
 - Second Edition Design Manager
 -  
#11610
Keller wrote:
The Guardian wrote:Okay, so there is alot going on there. (1) Which dilemmas do we face and which dilemmas do we not?
you face any dilemma revealed from the dilemma stack, or any dilemma you are specifically told to "face" by a game effect
Actually, in getting my response ready, I remembered the reason for the ruling was so that you could not stack dilemmas that went beyond the alloted cost for dilemmas or were the wrong type for the mission for things like Quantum Filament. Those you do not face. Thanks for the reminder.
Keller wrote:
The Guardian wrote:(3) How powerful is Tox Uthat if you can only truly respond to a dilemma when it tells you to do something?
you can do it when the dilemma is revealed, before the dilemma does anything.
So, that means I can use it once the dilemma is revealed, before it does anything, including the Consume, and once it does, I have to wait for a break to respond. So, Tox Uthat vs. Tragic Turn does not allow a player to wait until after the Consume and then make it go away?
User avatar
 
By Mugato
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#11614
The Guardian wrote:
Keller wrote:
The Guardian wrote:Okay, so there is alot going on there. (1) Which dilemmas do we face and which dilemmas do we not?
you face any dilemma revealed from the dilemma stack, or any dilemma you are specifically told to "face" by a game effect
Actually, in getting my response ready, I remembered the reason for the ruling was so that you could not stack dilemmas that went beyond the alloted cost for dilemmas or were the wrong type for the mission for things like Quantum Filament. Those you do not face. Thanks for the reminder.
Keller wrote:
The Guardian wrote:(3) How powerful is Tox Uthat if you can only truly respond to a dilemma when it tells you to do something?
you can do it when the dilemma is revealed, before the dilemma does anything.
So, that means I can use it once the dilemma is revealed, before it does anything, including the Consume, and once it does, I have to wait for a break to respond. So, Tox Uthat vs. Tragic Turn does not allow a player to wait until after the Consume and then make it go away?
Tragic Turn does tell you to do something. It tells you to place it on the mission. So I'd use tox uthat after the consume, before placing it on the mission.

Every dilemma tells you to do something. Otherwise it would be blank.

Jared
User avatar
Second Edition Design Manager
By The Guardian (Richard New)
 - Second Edition Design Manager
 -  
#11621
Mugato wrote:Tragic Turn does tell you to do something. It tells you to place it on the mission. So I'd use tox uthat after the consume, before placing it on the mission.

Every dilemma tells you to do something. Otherwise it would be blank.
I'm not saying it doesn't say anything. I'm saying it doesn't have anything for you to do. It is automatic. No random selections. No choosing personnel. No requirements to check. There is no point where you stop reading the dilemma. It gets placed in your core and you are done with it. No time to react.

This is my understanding from a ruling a few years ago when the popular opinion was that you could respond between sentences. Brad himself (who was not working at Decipher at the time) responded saying that the dilemma should instead progress until there is an interruption by a response to a particular trigger or the dilemma interacting with the player. I have enumerated what I believe are the three things a dilemma can do that give you a chance to do something:

(1) A random selection.
(2) A player making a choice of some sort.
(3) Checking if personnel meet requirements.

Otherwise, you should not be able to respond. I also believe that this should be spelled out in the Rulebook.

(If there are any moer anyone can think of, please let me know.)
User avatar
 
By Mugato
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#11623
The Guardian wrote:
Mugato wrote:Tragic Turn does tell you to do something. It tells you to place it on the mission. So I'd use tox uthat after the consume, before placing it on the mission.

Every dilemma tells you to do something. Otherwise it would be blank.
I'm not saying it doesn't say anything. I'm saying it doesn't have anything for you to do. It is automatic. No random selections. No choosing personnel. No requirements to check. There is no point where you stop reading the dilemma. It gets placed in your core and you are done with it. No time to react.

This is my understanding from a ruling a few years ago when the popular opinion was that you could respond between sentences. Brad himself (who was not working at Decipher at the time) responded saying that the dilemma should instead progress until there is an interruption by a response to a particular trigger or the dilemma interacting with the player. I have enumerated what I believe are the three things a dilemma can do that give you a chance to do something:

(1) A random selection.
(2) A player making a choice of some sort.
(3) Checking if personnel meet requirements.

Otherwise, you should not be able to respond. I also believe that this should be spelled out in the Rulebook.

(If there are any moer anyone can think of, please let me know.)
I would still add, under that idea, that placing the dilemma on the mission (or returning it to the dilemma pile) is still an action that you have to do. There very well could be a card that said "when you are about to place a card on this mission" or "when a dilemma is about to be returned to the dilemma pile"



Jared
User avatar
Second Edition Design Manager
By The Guardian (Richard New)
 - Second Edition Design Manager
 -  
#11627
Mugato wrote:I would still add, under that idea, that placing the dilemma on the mission (or returning it to the dilemma pile) is still an action that you have to do. There very well could be a card that said "when you are about to place a card on this mission" or "when a dilemma is about to be returned to the dilemma pile"
I can buy that as an idea in general, but then there are other things that could also make the list like placing the personnel that was just selected on the dilemma or in the discard pile. The idea is that personnel like the Borg Queen, Guardian of the Hive cannot replace a personnel after they have been selected, only before (unless there was another pause in the form of checking for a skill or attribute or something). Otherwise, the Borg Queen might as well pick a Drone for each selection. I used to run a deck (previous to this ruling) that abused Worf, First Officer in much the same way. It really is more balanced with the ruling and placing the dilemma on the mission does not make you pause to check something or make a decision, so in the end I don't think it is a good thing to add to the list.
Q-Flashin'

Battle deck with The Issue Is Patriotism

I really enjoyed draft the couple times I've playe[…]

Hey folks. I'm bumping this thread to see what peo[…]

jadziadax8 MW treebel 40-35 Thanks for the good g[…]