Check out the trials and troubles of the first Will of the Collective, where the community designed a card for the first time!

Should Consume Me! include a traditional effect?

Yes, just like a traditional dilemma.
30
70%
No, only when placed under by a Consume dilemma.
11
26%
Other, please comment in this thread.
2
5%
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Director of First Edition
By MidnightLich (Charlie Plaine)
 - Director of First Edition
 -  
Trailblazer
#8459
As is the nature of this kind of process, we can't predict all the things that are going to happen ahead of time. This is a perfect example of this problem: we've found we need to add an extra step to our process to account for a major decision.

If you haven't been following this process, the following is the dilemma concept that was chosen:
A dilemma whose effect occurs only when the dilemma is consumed.
This seems to imply that the dilemma only has an effect when the dilemma is placed beneath a mission by a Consume dilemma. But a significant number of people seem to think that the dilemma ought to have a regular effect as well; that it should do something when played normally.

So rather than make a decision, we're going to open it up to a vote: do you think that Consume Me! should only work when placed under a mission by a Consume dilemma, or do you feel it should have a regular effect as well.

There are a few caveats to this vote, however. Depending on which Submission is chosen as the card's gametext, there may be limited room on the card for this "normal" effect. So options may be limited. So if we end up not putting a normal effect on the card because there isn't room, don't be surprised.

With that being said, sound off. Let us know what you think before midnight on Sunday, March 30th. And don't forget to discuss your thoughts and opinions on this matter here.

-crp
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Second Edition Design Manager
By The Guardian (Richard New)
 - Second Edition Design Manager
 -  
#8463
I was among those that thought that the dilemma should have some normal effect, even if it was a random stop, at first. The more I think about it, the more I like the balance of a dilemma that only effects the game if it is Consumed.
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 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#8467
I think the main feature of my submission (which was not selected) was an effect when it was faced that facilitated consuming Consume Me! more reliably. I simply had this one effect:
"Place this dilemma on top of its owner's dilemma pile. When this dilemma is placed...yada yada yada"
I think the primary problem with Consume Me! that might threaten to make it binder fodder is that with the very minimal dilemma pile manipulation (for your own pile, anyway) out there, that consuming Consume Me! will be much more a matter of luck, a crap-shoot. I think the text I'm suggesting here solves that problem rather directly by having it set itself up in a stack in which a player places Consume Me! in front of a consume dilemma, something the player will have control of given they draw both Consume Me! and the consume dilemma in the same dilemma draw. I think without at least that measure of reliability in the design, that Consume Me! will, more often than not, not overcome the "hidden" cost of the dilemma taking up a position in one's dilemma pile in the first place; a cost which I sometimes feel is overlooked on occasion.

I feel fairly strongly that this simple effect, when faced, will improve the playability of Consume Me! substantially, yet in a simple and balanced way. That's my thought on the matter.
 
By YeahToast
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#8486
I think it depends on what the consumed effect will be.

C, D, E, and F are all good ideas but I do not feel that their effects would be worth their status as a "dead" card if they are never consumed. With these maybe something as simple as a random stop should be added to at least give them some use when you draw them.

A, B, G, and H have such powerful effects that I think it would be ok to make them "consumed" only dilemmas.
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By charlie
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Grand Nagus
#8490
I would like to see something happen if it cannot be consumed first. What if you draw it on the first play and don't also draw a consume dilemma? Then it will go to the bottom and you will either have to wait to shuffle your dilemma pile after going through it or find a way to shuffle it before that just to try to get this one back near the top again. I agree that if it only has a consume effect, then it may become binder fodder.
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By RedDwarf (Unjustly Banned)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#8510
I voted Yes, but the more I think about it, the more I think I'd like to wait and see which effect gets picked before I make my choice.

Not that I can change my decision. Doh!
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By Altoid
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#8525
CFHollister wrote:I think the main feature of my submission (which was not selected) was an effect when it was faced that facilitated consuming Consume Me! more reliably. I simply had this one effect:
"Place this dilemma on top of its owner's dilemma pile. When this dilemma is placed...yada yada yada"
If you want to Rig it so "Consume Me" is on top of the dilemma pile ready to be placed under a mission by a Consume dilemma, here's what you can do:

1) Play "Consume Me" as a regular dilemma
2) When "Consume Me" is overcome, pop The Trial Never Ended
3) "Consume Me" now is the top card of your dilemma pile
4) the next dilemma on the dilemma stack is encountered, it is probably a Consume dilemma, and voila! "Consume Me" is placed under a mission by a Consume dilemma :)
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Second Edition Design Manager
By The Guardian (Richard New)
 - Second Edition Design Manager
 -  
#8527
Altoid wrote:If you want to Rig it so "Consume Me" is on top of the dilemma pile ready to be placed under a mission by a Consume dilemma, here's what you can do:

1) Play "Consume Me" as a regular dilemma
2) When "Consume Me" is overcome, pop The Trial Never Ended
3) "Consume Me" now is the top card of your dilemma pile
4) the next dilemma on the dilemma stack is encountered, it is probably a Consume dilemma, and voila! "Consume Me" is placed under a mission by a Consume dilemma :)
True. Are you proposing that the dilemma should not have regular text or that the suggestion to which you replied should not be it? Or are you simply saying that the cost of setting up Consume Me by this text is not high enough? In your example, afterall, you have to destroy an event to make it work.
 
By whampiri
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#8528
nice tech there altoid! now why didnt i think of that?!

I went with the Q option. I like being able to drag out what is otherwise binder fodder and look at new ways of playing cards.
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By Altoid
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#8529
The Guardian wrote:
Altoid wrote:If you want to Rig it so "Consume Me" is on top of the dilemma pile ready to be placed under a mission by a Consume dilemma, here's what you can do:

1) Play "Consume Me" as a regular dilemma
2) When "Consume Me" is overcome, pop The Trial Never Ended
3) "Consume Me" now is the top card of your dilemma pile
4) the next dilemma on the dilemma stack is encountered, it is probably a Consume dilemma, and voila! "Consume Me" is placed under a mission by a Consume dilemma :)
True. Are you proposing that the dilemma should not have regular text or that the suggestion to which you replied should not be it? Or are you simply saying that the cost of setting up Consume Me by this text is not high enough? In your example, afterall, you have to destroy an event to make it work.
I offered the Trial Never Ended as a current way of accomplishing what CFHollister wanted to accomplish with his suggested text. If "Consume Me" wants to include its own built-in Trial Never Ended, that's fine by me.

I voted that Yes, "Consume Me" should include a regular effect that is in addition to its effect as a result of being placed under a mission by a Consume dilemma. :cheersL:
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 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#8531
Altoid wrote:I voted that Yes, "Consume Me" should include a regular effect that is in addition to its effect as a result of being placed under a mission by a Consume dilemma. :cheersL:
Your work-around with The Trial Never Ended works, but requires more support from the deck (which more often that not causes reliability issues, i.e. not having TTNE out when you need it) and ends up with one more dilemma overcome under the mission when all is said and done than my suggested text. It works, but I still see value in including the set-up text on the dilemma itself.
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Second Edition Design Manager
By The Guardian (Richard New)
 - Second Edition Design Manager
 -  
#8553
CFHollister wrote:
Altoid wrote:I voted that Yes, "Consume Me" should include a regular effect that is in addition to its effect as a result of being placed under a mission by a Consume dilemma. :cheersL:
Your work-around with The Trial Never Ended works, but requires more support from the deck (which more often that not causes reliability issues, i.e. not having TTNE out when you need it) and ends up with one more dilemma overcome under the mission when all is said and done than my suggested text. It works, but I still see value in including the set-up text on the dilemma itself.
That's funny. Depending on Altoid's response, I was thinking about suggesting a Consume: 1 in combination with your text. With all the room that text would take up though, that might make all but the smallest Consume Me effects viable:

"Consume: 1. (Your opponent places the top card of his or her dilemma pile face up beneath this mission.) Place this dilemma on top of its owner's dilemma pile. When this dilemma is placed beneath a mission by a Consume dilemma, XXX."

Not much room for the XXX. I think it balances the power of making it a sure it versus crossing your fingers, though.
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 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#8564
The Guardian wrote:That's funny. Depending on Altoid's response, I was thinking about suggesting a Consume: 1 in combination with your text. With all the room that text would take up though, that might make all but the smallest Consume Me effects viable:

"Consume: 1. (Your opponent places the top card of his or her dilemma pile face up beneath this mission.) Place this dilemma on top of its owner's dilemma pile. When this dilemma is placed beneath a mission by a Consume dilemma, XXX."

Not much room for the XXX. I think it balances the power of making it a sure it versus crossing your fingers, though.
See, I don't think the reliability that my suggested text offers needs to be costed with a consume, a counter cost almost certainly, but a consume cost seems really steep to me. This is in no small part due to the fact that making the dilemma more reliable with the "Place this dilemma on top of its owner's dilemma pile." text is intended to offset what I see is an already hidden cost of including the dilemma in your pile to begin with. Spending some counters on that kind of reliability makes sense to me, but a consume (or additional dilemmas overcome, as with a TTNE solution) seems a bit steep to me.
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Second Edition Design Manager
By The Guardian (Richard New)
 - Second Edition Design Manager
 -  
#8566
CFHollister wrote:See, I don't think the reliability that my suggested text offers needs to be costed with a consume, a counter cost almost certainly, but a consume cost seems really steep to me. This is in no small part due to the fact that making the dilemma more reliable with the "Place this dilemma on top of its owner's dilemma pile." text is intended to offset what I see is an already hidden cost of including the dilemma in your pile to begin with. Spending some counters on that kind of reliability makes sense to me, but a consume (or additional dilemmas overcome, as with a TTNE solution) seems a bit steep to me.
That makes sense. I got into a thing where I started thinking of it as a 0-cost dilemma. (I might even be wrong there.) What kind of cost do you think is appropriate?
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 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#8569
The Guardian wrote:That makes sense. I got into a thing where I started thinking of it as a 0-cost dilemma. (I might even be wrong there.) What kind of cost do you think is appropriate?
I tend to envision a [D] 2-cost dilemma. Costing the "real" effect makes no sense because it only goes off when consumed (and will be "free" anyway if you get lucky and it just happens to be at the right place at teh right time). As long as the "Place..." text is the only text when the dilemma is faced, I figure 2 counters was enough to buy you the certainty of it going off. At least I thought that would be a good place to start and then see what kind of data playtesting got onthe matter.

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