[Armus]

There seems to be some question about how many members of the community really want the CoC. As such, in the interest of getting facts to inform future discussions and decisions, I wanted to create this poll to start the conversation.

A few upfront notes:

1.) This discussion is just that, a discussion. The Moderator team is not bound by any opinion, majority or otherwise.

2.) The current CoC will remain in effect and will continue to be enforced until and unless changed through the normal amendment procedures outlined in the current CoC.

3.) All community members are encouraged to participate in this discussion. However, if you prefer to not post your opinion publicly, you can PM it to me and I will post it without attribution on your behalf.

4.) The poll is scheduled to run for 30 days. This will give all users a chance to participate, including those who might have to wait a few days to weigh in.

In addition to answering the poll question, please provide your thoughts, good bad ugly or otherwise. My goal is to get as many users views as possible so we know where the community as a whole stands.

As I said above, the Mod Team is not bound by anything here. However, the reason I'm putting this poll up is to get better information on where the community stands today (as opposed to 4-5 years ago when this was last attempted) and the input received will inform the Mod Team's discussions and decisions regarding possible CoC changes going forward.

I view part my job as Head Moderator as one of balancing equities between different factions of the community. As such, I appreciate everyone's input. This is your chance to have your voice heard on this topic.

[AllenGould]

Question - how many actual *people* have said they don't want a CoC, versus people who are trying to "vote by proxy" by claiming that other unnamed people don't want one?

Question the Second - what is meant by "police themselves"? Unless every member gets a ban button (or at least far more robust mute/block tools than we currently have), this means "if you don't like it, leave".

[Armus]

Question - how many actual *people* have said they don't want a CoC, versus people who are trying to "vote by proxy" by claiming that other unnamed people don't want one?

Question the Second - what is meant by "police themselves"? Unless every member gets a ban button (or at least far more robust mute/block tools than we currently have), this means "if you don't like it, leave".

I've had people claim that a majority wants the CoC. I've had other people claim the people wanting the CoC are a distinct minority. This is an effort to get some actual data with which to evaluate those competing claims.

As to your second question, no CoC means just that. If you don't like what somebody has to say, you can confront them or ignore them, but there's no appeal to an authority figure to deal with them for you.

[BCSWowbagger]

We know that the forum is vulnerable to users registering fake or family accounts and voting using those accounts to "stuff the ballot box". Does this poll have any safeguards against that?

[Latok]

Also why is this in The Buzz, away from other CoC/Moderation discussion/messages?

[Boffo97]

My for which you are drastically overpaying:

In an ideal world, it could be just assumed that a forum primarily dedicated to 3 Star Trek card games created in 1994, 2000 and 2002 wouldn't need any kind of formalized Code of Conduct. Games are supposed to be fun, and the vast majority of us are adults given the ages of these games.

Unfortunately, and without going into detail about why, it hasn't worked out that way.

I think we can all agree that the main issue and purpose of the CoC is Rule 11 (the anti-disparagement rule) and as a consequence of that, Rule 13 (the penalty structure for Rule 11). Beyond that, the only real activity mods have are very rare Rule 7 (ban evasion) issues and shuffling off spambots (the part of the job I assume no one takes issue with). I think we can count on one hand the times that it's been any other issue. Moving the Politics talk into Quark's Bar eased a headache, but there's still flareups.

The main issue the current CoC has is this IMO: The way I interpret the whole escalating penalty structure of Rule 13 is to tell people "Hey, these are the rules. Until and unless they change, if you break them, you're going to get progressively stronger warnings that if you keep acting this way, you'll no longer be welcome here." That approach doesn't seem to be working. And I'm not sure what other approach to use if certain people are locked into the concept that if something upsets them, then they are going to refuse to follow these rules and that they should have every right to do so.

The last thing I would ever want is anyone reaching the stage of being indefinitely suspended, but other than not doing my job (which would make some very happy), but I fear that there's nothing I can do about that possibly happening if a poster insists on breaking the rules and that we mods are just wrong and evil and whatever else they can think of if we say otherwise.

I do however absolutely think going back to the no rules Wild West approach is a very bad idea that will turn away more people from these games than it will attract. And while I have no special knowledge of what's inside the heads of the Powers That Be, I'd be very surprised if that was under consideration.

[jjh]

My 2¢ (and I'm taking off the green badge, for what that's worth):

The CoC and the Moderator Team have done good, honorable work for the greater community. Current and former Mod Team members have my gratitude.

But what if…

… there simply were NO Forums on this site? No CoC. No Mod Team. Would that be better or worse for the Star Trek CCG Community? New players? Returning players? Lifers?

Would no forums be better or worse for the stewardship of the game?

Over the years there have been a lot of comments that TCC should be run more like a business. My brain tends to agree with this sentiment; at times my heart does not. I can say this with certainty from 20+ years in Marketing: a business would have eliminated these Forums a LONG time ago.

[Boffo97]

I would be sad and lonely without fellow nerds to discuss my geeky Star Trek cards with.

[bosskamiura]

I think if there were no longer forums here, people would just go elsewhere like Facebook or my Discord Channel to stay in touch.

It’s already happening.

TK

[Boffo97]

I think if there were no longer forums here, people would just go elsewhere like Facebook or my Discord Channel to stay in touch.

It’s already happening.

TK

On one hand, there is merit to that idea. Some could join a place that's more anything goes. Some could join a place where there's "Don't be a jerk" rules.

But while some would join both, that would be a permanent splintering of the community, which would be sad.

But that might ultimately end up the best answer.

[jjh]

I think if there were no longer forums here, people would just go elsewhere like Facebook or my Discord Channel to stay in touch.

It’s already happening.

TK

Agreed. And I think that’s my point. The forums here at Trekcc.org are unnecessary in 2019. Social media, third party sites, and whatever else negate the need for public forums at the Trek CC site.

[DarkSabre]

I think if there were no longer forums here, people would just go elsewhere like Facebook or my Discord Channel to stay in touch.

It’s already happening.

TK

Agreed. And I think that’s my point. The forums here at Trekcc.org are unnecessary in 2019. Social media, third party sites, and whatever else negate the need for public forums at the Trek CC site.

I disagree. Dedicated forums are available for other games. We aren’t so big that we should not have something on the site for discussion.






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[BCSWowbagger]

I think there's too many resources available / created only through the forums for "no forums" to work. For instance, where does an experimental format like HoF get started and gain official notice without a forum? And I don't believe the 1E Rulebook would or even *could* have happened without the forums to serve as an incubator / place for me (then an unknown random player with no CC connections) to post a first draft and attract official attention.

Too, the forums are the main channel for finding new volunteers. Forum interactions are how new potentials get known and invited to things they might not otherwise volunteer for (or which might not be open to general applications at all -- I dont recall ever seeing open apps for Design, Rules, or Errata in either game, though I could be wrong.)

Forum interactions are where the CC culls a lot of its feedback, and the only place for clarifications of new policies in a free-flowing open and continuous Q&A format. They're the only place we can have rules discussions that culminate in bluetexts.

Maybe there is a lot of extraneous stuff we can cut or restrict; I dont know without thinking it through a lot more. But I think the forums are essential to the CC's interface with the public in a whole lot of ways not easily replaced. We might be able to sanitize the forums further and encourage discussion on alternative platforms. I really don't think we can delete the forums.

Still, provocative idea, and I like that about it the very least.

[BCSWowbagger]

On one hand, there is merit to that idea. Some could join a place that's more anything goes. Some could join a place where there's "Don't be a jerk" rules.

Isnt that kind of the state we are in already? The CC public boards are the "Don't be a jerk" space. As TK says, alternative spaces exist and are growing.

Don't need to delete the forums to complete that transformation. Acknowledging that the transformation is happening, though, could be helpful in revising the CoC. (I think one reason the CoC is so cautious is because there is a sense that permaban from this forum == excommunication from the game and its entire community. But that is decreasingly true as alternative outlets spring up.)

Sorry for the double post; on mobile.

[Boffo97]

I disagree. Dedicated forums are available for other games. We aren’t so big that we should not have something on the site for discussion.

What I notice about other games though, and I'm not thinking necessarily card games, but I'm mostly thinking of the World of Warcraft forums, they have a much stricter rules/sanctions system, so people who believe they have every right to not follow the rules don't last long there.

So if we wanted to imitate that, we'd end up with something like this:

* There'd be no more 1st offense warning. The 3 day ban *IS* the warning to stop.

* Sanctions would be appealable only to the moderator who issued them and perhaps not even then.

* There would be no public announcements of sanctions or Moderatorial Discussion Thread.

* There's a lot of stuff we let go in here because it squeaks kinda sorta under the "reasonable, measured and civil criticism" line implied by Rule 11a that wouldn't be let go under this hypothetical system.

* It would be much, much easier to reach the level of indefinite suspension (assuming that wasn't even a thing and it was just permanent ban instead.)

* For offenses of the type spelled out in the current CoC's Section II, including the recent ban evasion incident, it would be extremely likely that all involved accounts would have been permabanned without a second thought.

I'm not saying that this is what I endorse, because the biggest problem with this is that this is a smaller community than a lot of other games and the fear has seemed to be that banning one person will result in a bunch of people leaving due to friendships that go back years.

So while a system like this would certainly be much more effective than what we have now, whether it would worth the cost is another matter entirely. And whether that's more or less than the cost of onsite forums which even with the current CoC end up not a place that says "Come play these games!" to newcomers a lot of times.

Isnt that kind of the state we are in already? The CC public boards are the "Don't be a jerk" space. As TK says, alternative spaces exist and are growing.

Don't need to delete the forums to complete that transformation. Acknowledging that the transformation is happening, though, could be helpful in revising the CoC. (I think one reason the CoC is so cautious is because there is a sense that permaban from this forum == excommunication from the game and its entire community. But that is decreasingly true as alternative outlets spring up.)

Sorry for the double post; on mobile.

Very good point. Especially given that no one's had any issue with endorsing alternate spaces for Trek CCG here.