[KillerB]

Let's have a real discussion now. Please limit the bad metaphors and false comparisons.

All that's being asked is the community to discuss changing Rule #11:

11. In a moderated forum, no user shall post any content or remark that is belittling, disparaging, denigrating, harassing, threatening, bullying, or cruel towards another person; nor any content or remark that would be perceived by a reasonable bystander to be belittling, disparaging, denigrating, harassing, threatening, bullying, or cruel; nor shall any user post such content directed against any discrete category or class of persons.

I ask we take a hard look at the words belittling, denigrating, bullying and cruel. I also submit we clarify the word harassing.

I would also submit Rule 11.a for changing:

11a. Criticism of other persons (or classes of persons) is permitted, even in moderated forums, even if it is severe, as long as its expression is reasonable, measured, and civil. Only disparagement of other persons is prohibited.

Free speech is crucial to reorganize incompetent hierarchies. I also submit we strike out 'as long as it's reasonable, measured and civil'. Measured means restrained. That's not in the spirit of open criticism. Even if the criticism is unreasonable or uncivil, if it's not directed at a person individually then there is no harm. The CC should be competent enough to handle unreasonable, unmeasured and uncivil criticism of it's decisions. Any curtailing of free speech by an organization erodes the authority of that organization.

[bhosp]

I’d also drop rules 11b and 11c, those are at best redundant ways of saying to us: “fuck you, we’re in charge”

[KillerB]

I’d also drop rules 11b and 11c, those are at best redundant ways of saying to us: “fuck you, we’re in charge”

We haven't even gotten to 'reasonable bystander' and the Report Button yet.

That's the problem with Sykes' bad faith poll. He framed the debate as CoC vs. anti-CoC. I know some people have a hard time admitting this: I've changed my mind. I want a CoC. However, I want a reasonable CoC that can be enforced fairly. They have proven, even in the past 7 days, that they are incapable of doing so.

[monty42]

[BCSWowbagger]

Can you edit the poll to allow me to change my vote? I voted for the wrong option.

[KillerB]

Can you edit the poll to allow me to change my vote? I voted for the wrong option.

Done.

[BCSWowbagger]

Grazie.

[KillerB]

At the risk of making BenHosp feel dirty, I'd like to respond to the gentleman who watched the Hosp Report and kept making weird 'sharks in the water' remarks. I'll let somebody smarter then me explain what humor does:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyWwuv1UkRg&t=29s

[Nerdopolis Prime]

I ask we take a hard look at the words belittling, denigrating, bullying and cruel. I also submit we clarify the word harassing.

Why, the heck, should it be neccessary to explain those words to intelligent people? Isn´t it self explainatory?

[bhosp]

I ask we take a hard look at the words belittling, denigrating, bullying and cruel. I also submit we clarify the word harassing.

Why, the heck, should it be neccessary to explain those words to intelligent people? Isn´t it self explainatory?

No, because John’s complaint is that you can be as belittling, denigrating, or bullying as you like as long as you phrase it in a passive-aggressive snarky way. But if you respond to that with overt hostility, the Mods swoop in to “protect” us from your honesty.

I came up with this analogy while I was on Ban Island: consider Kai Winn and Mirror Kira. Which one would you rather hang out with? (Let’s bracket, for the sake of this analogy, the physical danger hanging out with Mirror Kira would entail.) Kai Winn would effortlessly obey Rule 11, but she’s not a very pleasant person to interact with. Mirror Kira might go off on you for wearing the wrong color shirt or whatever, but at least you always know where you stand with her.

[HoodieDM]

consider Kai Winn and Mirror Kira. Which one would you rather hang out with?

Mirror Kira...she's a freak!!

~D

[bhosp]

consider Kai Winn and Mirror Kira. Which one would you rather hang out with?

Mirror Kira...she's a freak!!

~D

I probably didn’t even need to throw in the caveat about physical danger, because Winn will stab you too, but I guess you’re safe as long as you don’t slut-shame her for fucking Space Hitler.

[Nerdopolis Prime]

consider Kai Winn and Mirror Kira. Which one would you rather hang out with?

I say hang them both.

[KillerB]

I ask we take a hard look at the words belittling, denigrating, bullying and cruel. I also submit we clarify the word harassing.

Why, the heck, should it be neccessary to explain those words to intelligent people? Isn´t it self explainatory?

I went over this on the SharkTank show you watched. You watch the video?

At the risk of making BenHosp feel dirty, I'd like to respond to the gentleman who watched the Hosp Report and kept making weird 'sharks in the water' remarks. I'll let somebody smarter then me explain what humor does:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyWwuv1UkRg&t=29s

Since you're bragging about your intelligence again I'd like you opinion on it.

[KillerB]

No, because John’s complaint is that you can be as belittling, denigrating, or bullying as you like as long as you phrase it in a passive-aggressive snarky way. But if you respond to that with overt hostility, the Mods swoop in to “protect” us from your honesty.

I came up with this analogy while I was on Ban Island: consider Kai Winn and Mirror Kira. Which one would you rather hang out with? (Let’s bracket, for the sake of this analogy, the physical danger hanging out with Mirror Kira would entail.) Kai Winn would effortlessly obey Rule 11, but she’s not a very pleasant person to interact with. Mirror Kira might go off on you for wearing the wrong color shirt or whatever, but at least you always know where you stand with her.

That's true, but I have issue with the definitions of the words being applied in a CoC. Words are the skin of ideas. Harassment and Bullying don't mean on paper what they mean to certain people today (I'm trying very hard not to say SJW's).

That's what I mean when I say "clarify".