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Director of First Edition
By MidnightLich (Charlie Plaine)
 - Director of First Edition
 -  
Prophet
#559493
Hello all! I'm coming to you with some information about an opportunity we have to replace the OTSD / Fractured Time style box. As many of you know, 2E's Fractured Time has been unavailable for years and recently, 1E's OTSD has become expensive and hard to find. At least on the 1E side (which is my bailiwick as the Director of First Edition), we have taken some steps to mitigate this. But the one thing we haven't really been able to replace is the box.

Well, at my day job, we ship a lot of product and thus by a lot of boxes. I asked one of our vendors, a cardboard supplier, if they could look at an OTSD and see what they could make. Now, the original OTSDs were made out of paperboard, which is thinner that corrugated cardboard and not something they did. I decided to have them proceed, and after some time, they came back to me with two options. I'd like to present those options to you and ask for your opinions. We discussed this at the board meeting in early August, if you'd like to watch that discussion.

We have two options for the box itself. Photos of both appear attached to this post.

Option A: The Standard Box
The first option is one using a standard box they already carry, which means there are no fees for a custom size. It's a single piece with a fold open lid, like the boxes you often see at game stores. It is a 4" x 4" x 3" box, so slightly wider and deeper than the OTSD.

The minimum order size for this is 250 pieces at a price of $3.09 each. If we increase the order to 500 pieces, the price per unit drops quite a bit down to $1.79 each. And finally, if we increase the order to 1,000 units, the individual unit price would be $1.09. These prices are all good for just cardboard with no art.

We have the option of getting some single color printing done on the boxes, which changes the price slightly. This would cost $3.27, $1.89, and $1.15 for 250, 500, or 1,000 units respectively. (The printing increases the price by 18 cents for 250 units, by 10 cents for 500 units, and by 6 cents for 1,000 units.) Please note that under no circumstances will we be using copy-written art.

Option B: The Replica
Our other option is for a box designed to replicate the OTSD box as closely as possible. It's two pieces - a box for the bottom, and a lid that goes over top. Because it will be cardboard and not paperboard, the box and lid will be thicker. This means the external dimensions will be more than that of the OTSD, but the internal dimensions will be identical - 4" x 3 3/4" x 2 7/8".

Note about the photos: the people that made the prototype misread the depth, and make the prototype at 3 7/8" instead of the correct 2 7/8". This is why the box seems too tall. The actual box we order will not be too tall.

Because this is not a standard design, there will be a one-time fee for a new cutting die, for $650. However, once made, the die will be available for us forever, meaning future orders will not need to pay this fee.

For 250 pieces of the plain, two-part box, the price is $3.30 each. By ordering 500 pieces, that price drops to $2.00; if we order the 1,000 piece quantity, it drops further down to $1.30.

Like the previous box, we have the option to have one color printing done to this box as well, for an additional per unit fee. The price per unit of an order of 250 boxes increases by 18 cents to $3.48. At 500 units, the increase is 10 cents to a $2.10 price per unit; finally, for 1,000 units, the increase is 6 cents to $1.36. Please note that under no circumstances will we be using copy-written art.

Additional Details
The prices above include shipping to my work in Salem, Oregon. The boxes ship flat and need to be assembled, either in the warehouse or by the end users. I'm working on a deal with my boss to allow me to store the boxes at my work, which would be free of charge. Otherwise, I will find a way to store them at my home.

Lead time is approximately three weeks for any size order of any size box. They can produce the die for Option B very quickly, once the order is placed. We would need to pay by check or credit card at the time the order is placed.

We have the option to order the boxes in colored cardboard, instead of the traditional Kraft / brown color. They use GMCI colors, although we can use a Pantone color for a slight additional fee. (I'll ask about the fee if that's something we want to explore.)

To summarize the costs:

Option A - Standard One Piece Box
250 Units, No Printing: $772.50
500 Units, No Printing: $895.00
1,000 Units, No Printing: $1,090.00

250 Units, 1 Color Printing: $817.50
500 Units, 1 Color Printing: $945.00
1,000 Units, 1 Color Printing: $1,150.00

Option B - Replica Two Piece Box
One-Time Cutting Die Fee: $650.00

250 Units, No Printing: $825.00 ($1,475 w/one time fee)
500 Units, No Printing: $1,000 ($1,650 w/one time fee)
1,000 Units, No Printing: $1,300.00 ($1,950 w/one time fee)

250 Units, 1 Color Printing: $870.00 ($1,520 w/one time fee)
500 Units, 1 Color Printing: $1,050.00 ($1,700 w/one time fee)
1,000 Units, 1 Color Printing: $1,360.00 ($2,010 w/one time fee)

Questions
The biggest question is, given the expense here, what would we do with these boxes? Would we recreate OTSD boxes? If we did, would they be for special CC-sponsored events? Or for sale to all of you? If we do that, what is the risk of running afoul of the powers that be?

Do we look to get more box tops designed for the new size? Or do something simpler like stickers? What about for 2E? Do we make new versions of a product like Fracture Time, or develop an OTSD-like experience for 2E?

How would we ship these? Both in the US, and overseas? What would the shopping costs be like?

These are all questions we've thought of, but we want to hear your thoughts. All the data is outlined above - what do you think? Is there potential here? Or is this just not something we need to do? And what questions haven't we asked? I'll do my best to answer them, especially if I need to reach out to my contact for more information.

In the mean time, read over things and check out the photos. Sound off with your thoughts, and invite your friends and fellow players to do so as well.

-crp
Attachments:
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option_A_open_w_packs.jpg (1.26 MiB) Viewed 5328 times
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option_b_packs.jpg
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option_b_cards.jpg (1.88 MiB) Viewed 5328 times
option_b_open.jpg
option_b_open.jpg (1.28 MiB) Viewed 5328 times
User avatar
 
By Iron Prime (Dan Van Kampen)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Moderator
#559507
An intriguing idea. I will have to give it some thought. Would we be able to update the customer boxtop program to match these new boxes?

Also:
Has there been any talk about reaching out the Star Wars or Lord of the Rings players committees to try and pad-out a larger bulk order*?

*Since you did the legwork here I propose that we should decide what we want and then ask other if they want to jump on with our order if we need more to make it to the price cuts...
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By Mugato
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E World Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E World Runner-Up 2023
#559526
I really like this idea. I really the durability look of the samples. Coincidentally I was just looking at the printable OTSD art yesterday to see if there was a way to make those work for standard cardboard deck boxes. As my OTSD boxes wear out, I started using standard cardboard boxes, sometimes decorated by my kids, but usually quite plain. I did miss having Star Trek themed boxes. You could tell by the boxes that what we were playing.

I understand that copy-written art is not an option. Would it be possible to have a printable template that fit either design?

Another thing I like about OTSD is that they fit inside standard column card boxes for easier storage. Would the custom design still have similar exterior dimensions?

I can't speak to the economics of it but it sounds like a prize support trophy type option with custom art. I don't know if it would be reasonable to ship them one at a time to per order unless they fit in a standard, reasonably priced mailer.
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Second Edition Playtest Manager
By Faithful Reader (Ross Fertel)
 - Second Edition Playtest Manager
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#559835
How about asking someone else. Anyone else. If this is the price for a company that make millions of boxes, what about one that makes billions?

How about those outside Salem Oregon? What are their prices? Might they be cheaper even when factoring in shipping.

Speaking of Salem Oregon, why do they have to live there?

Are there good cost-effective ways to get this sent outside the US?

If we go with the basic box from game stores, why do we have to spend this amount of money when we could spend far less making a sticker?

Have there been any thoughts into 3-D printing of boxes?

It's great that we have some answers and there has been a lot of thought put into this but there are still some fundamental questions that we need to ask first.
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Chief Programmer
By eberlems
 - Chief Programmer
 -  
Explorer
2E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E  National Second Runner-Up 2023
#559846
I do like the idea for new boxes and like the nostalgia feeling. Under 3$ sounds great, then they must somehow end at an event, that adds to the cost. Not sure who is going to assemble them and how the box pdf print will end up on the box.
Also shipping these overseas and 19% vat would add quite a bit.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#559848
Faithful Reader wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:57 am How about asking someone else. Anyone else. If this is the price for a company that make millions of boxes, what about one that makes billions?

How about those outside Salem Oregon? What are their prices? Might they be cheaper even when factoring in shipping.

Speaking of Salem Oregon, why do they have to live there?

Are there good cost-effective ways to get this sent outside the US?

If we go with the basic box from game stores, why do we have to spend this amount of money when we could spend far less making a sticker?

Have there been any thoughts into 3-D printing of boxes?

It's great that we have some answers and there has been a lot of thought put into this but there are still some fundamental questions that we need to ask first.
I can tell you that the price per box from China came out to about the same amount, once shipping was factored in. 3D printing isn't ever a cost-effective way of producing anything en masse.
User avatar
Second Edition Playtest Manager
By Faithful Reader (Ross Fertel)
 - Second Edition Playtest Manager
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#559850
JeBuS wrote:I can tell you that the price per box from China came out to about the same amount, once shipping was factored in.
Okay, that takes care of Salem and China. Are we just going with the two quotes?
JeBuS wrote:3D printing isn't ever a cost-effective way of producing anything en masse.
Who said anything about producing en masse? Figure out the required specs, release them online and let us use our own/go to the library/pay a buddy five bucks.
User avatar
First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#560249
Faithful Reader wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 3:20 pm
JeBuS wrote:3D printing isn't ever a cost-effective way of producing anything en masse.
Who said anything about producing en masse? Figure out the required specs, release them online and let us use our own/go to the library/pay a buddy five bucks.
You mean like this? :)
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