A place for complete-off-topic conversations that have nothing to do with Star Trek. The rules still apply here, stay civil.
User avatar
 
By Dukat (Andreas Rheinländer)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
1E German National Runner-Up 2024
#598530
Hi guys,

a question …

Assume I upload a picture to an NFT platform and offer it there.

The picture is written into the blockhain and offered for sale.
What happens next?


Can I still use it myself? After all, I have the original image on my PC.
Also, anyone can copy it making a screenshot.


Anything I am missing here?

I am trying to understand the NFT thingy.
User avatar
 
By Dukat (Andreas Rheinländer)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
1E German National Runner-Up 2024
#598535
I know it is a hype, nonetheless, I try to understand the basics behind it.

So let's stick with any digital image.

I put it on one of those platforms. It is in the blockchain, but what exactly does that mean?

I have never used any blockchain technology, hence I am not familiar with how it works in practise (I know a tad about the theory behind it, but have never done anything with it).

When it is in the blockchain ... then what?

If it does not secure my rights, why do it in the first place? (Let us set aside the hype aspect, I am honestly trying to understand this stuff)
User avatar
 
By flrazor (Jeremy Benedict)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#598548
The concept of NFT is to have a documented chain of ownership for a unique digital asset, and like any asset the value is whatever someone wants to pay for it. Ideally the asset would be unique in such a way that the file is distinct and doesn't have multiple copies existing that exactly match. Since it's usually transaction records, I suppose you could post something just to say you own it, but there's no practical purpose for doing so.

In practice enforcing those ownership rights isn't well defined by law anywhere (yet). As mentioned you can modify as little as a pixel and still technically have a unique digital image. There's really nothing stopping someone from downloading a copy of the same file either just to have it themselves or to attempt to resell, because the only people that care what the blockchain says are other people using the blockchain.

The existing ability to download content from online really means the ideal situation doesn't work, though it doesn't mean you can't transfer digital assets via blockchain as well because you are able to.
User avatar
 
By Maelwys (Chris Lobban)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Community Contributor
#598552
Dukat wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 5:12 am Anything I am missing here?

I am trying to understand the NFT thingy.
Nope, you're not really missing anything... it just doesn't make a lot of sense in general. ;-)
One clarification though... images aren't generally uploaded to the blockchain at all. They're uploaded somewhere else, to whatever website you'd like. And then the URL for that image is added to the blockchain. Anybody else can still follow the link and see the image, download it if they want, and use it the same way that you use every other image on the web. You don't even need to take a screenshot to save it to your hard drive. The only difference is that because you added that link to the blockchain, there is somebody out there that can point at the blockchain and say "look, I own that image". And that gets exactly as much respect as anybody is willing to give it... which in most communities is close to 0. But obviously somebody out there cares enough that some URLs get sold for hundreds of thousands of dollars. All because somebody is speculating that people will care that they own it.

But in real, practical terms, within most of society right now, it means exactly nothing. I could add https://www.trekcc.org/images/header_banner.gif into the blockchain if I wanted, and then claim that I own it... but that won't change how this site looks. Nobody is going to force the website from taking the image off the front page. No lawsuit or police force is going to enforce that "ownership". The only people that would care are those that invest in NFTs, and want to convince people that they have value...
User avatar
Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
1E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#598560
Their one practical purpose I've heard of is money laundering. No longer need to pretend to sell a painting or figurine or piece of jewelry. You get to just make shit up out of thin air, declare it has a value of whatever, then sell it to a drug lord or whoever in another country. Now you have "legitimate" income to report to the IRS.
User avatar
 
By Dukat (Andreas Rheinländer)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
1E German National Runner-Up 2024
#598564
Maelwys wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 2:43 pm They're uploaded somewhere else, to whatever website you'd like. And then the URL for that image is added to the blockchain.
That is actually the kind of practical thing I was looking for!

So the link is added to the blockchain ... that is interesting.


I assume it is the link and a hash value of the image itself, right?
To identify it?


What I do not understand is ...
Why does it say that NFTs are 'unique' and 'cannot be copied'?
User avatar
 
By Maelwys (Chris Lobban)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Community Contributor
#598580
Dukat wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 12:02 am I assume it is the link and a hash value of the image itself, right?
To identify it?


What I do not understand is ...
Why does it say that NFTs are 'unique' and 'cannot be copied'?
I don't think there's usually any hash value, just the link. So you can theoretically change what that link points at later if you'd like, it's not important.

They say that they're unique and cannot be copied because only one person can own that section of the blockchain, and there's a full transaction record proving who owns it. But it's only unique or uncopyable within the context of the blockchain, and thus only matters to people who choose to respect the value of the blockchain. To the rest of the world, it's entirely meaningless and unenforceable.

I can take a piece of paper and write on it "I own the image at https://img.trekcc.org/navbar-brand.svg ". And I can wave that around as proof that I own it. There's only one such piece of paper. If I give it to somebody else, they'll have that piece of paper that says that they own it, and I no longer will. It's entirely unique and uncopyable. But that piece of paper only matters to people that I can convince to believe that it matters.

Now obviously there are more people that believe in the blockchain than there are that believe in my piece of paper. But far far fewer than there are that believe in the pieces of paper that the government prints and says "these are worth $1". And they've got a very long way to go indeed before they get anywhere near the same point of acceptance...
User avatar
 
By ikeya (David Kuck)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#598758
Finally logged back in here to see what's going on. :cheersL: (And drop some tickets in the raffle.)

NFTs are definitely a topic I enjoy talking about. A couple of clarifications.

Fungible Token vs. Non-Fungible Token: A bitcoin is a fungible token. A portion of a bitcoin is completely interchangeable with another exact quantity of a bitcoin. Similar to how a US quarter is practically interchangeable with any other US quarter and is worth $0.25. If you give me a regular quarter and I give you a regular quarter in return, no change of value has occurred.

NFTs are different in that each one is uniquely identifiable, kind of a like a piece of artwork from the real world. What makes NFTs unique are proof of ownership and provenance. You can make a copy of the picture of an $87,000 bored ape https://nft.coinbase.com/nft/ethereum/0 ... 6f13d/7717 but it will always only ever be a copy. The real one has contract address 0xbc4ca0eda7647a8ab7c2061c2e118a18a936f13d, token #7717 and you can view the provenance on a blockchain explorer like Etherscan. https://etherscan.io/token/0xbc4ca0eda7 ... 13d?a=7717

Some collections like the Bored Ape Yacht Club give you full IP rights to the image. So if someone made a poster with your image on it, you COULD sue them for copyright infringement. Some NFTs also grant membership to discord channels or even real life clubs.

As for what the token represents is stored in the metadata generated/returned by the contract for a given token. The metadata is usually all that is actually ON the blockchain itself. It may be a pointer to an image or even a pointer to a metadata file (more common) which has a URL to an image as well as other attributes for the NFT. It may be a mutable location that can be changed over time. (e.g., https://img.trekcc.org/navbar-brand.svg) or more commonly, it's written to the Inter-planetary File System (IPFS) or Arweave which are immutable and peer-to-peer, so can and will never be changed. In rare cases, sometimes the images themselves are written to the blockchain (e.g., https://nft.coinbase.com/collection/eth ... de6e193bbb) but that is rare and now very expensive given the price of Ethereum.

Right now, NFTs are playthings of speculators, but I truly believe they are the future of digital assets. Reddit avatars are already NFTs under the covers and I see most video game items, retail loyalty programs, etc. all transitioning to NFTs in the coming years. It's just starting to get interesting. :)
User avatar
Second Edition Art Manager
By edgeofhearing (Lucas Thompson)
 - Second Edition Art Manager
 -  
Community Contributor
#598762
ikeya wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 11:47 pmRight now, NFTs are playthings of speculators, but I truly believe they are the future of digital assets. Reddit avatars are already NFTs under the covers and I see most video game items, retail loyalty programs, etc. all transitioning to NFTs in the coming years. It's just starting to get interesting. :)
There are a lot of ways to do digital rights management that aren't decentralized blockchain systems. I personally do not see any advantage in a blockchain-based system since a centralized system at least provides a recourse for cases of fraud. It doesn't have to be a bank or a government-run system (those certainly come with their own problems), but even with all their flaws I'm not sure what I'd trust more.
User avatar
 
By Dukat (Andreas Rheinländer)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
1E German National Runner-Up 2024
#598766
Someone who seems to be into the topic.
Great to have you join this conversaion!

ikeya wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 11:47 pm NFTs are different in that each one is uniquely identifiable, kind of a like a piece of artwork from the real world. What makes NFTs unique are proof of ownership and provenance. You can make a copy of the picture of an $87,000 bored ape https://nft.coinbase.com/nft/ethereum/0 ... 6f13d/7717 but it will always only ever be a copy. The real one has contract address 0xbc4ca0eda7647a8ab7c2061c2e118a18a936f13d, token #7717 and you can view the provenance on a blockchain explorer like Etherscan. https://etherscan.io/token/0xbc4ca0eda7 ... 13d?a=7717
Well ... I would say that poses kind of a philosphical question: What is an 'original' in terms of digital art?
The 'first copy'?
The very first bits on a hard drive where it was created?

Why am I asking?
Because ...
If we take that as a 'yes', then the uploaded version is ALSO only a copy.

The fact that it has a fixed address online means that a copy of the 'original' has a fixed address online.

Some collections like the Bored Ape Yacht Club give you full IP rights to the image. So if someone made a poster with your image on it, you COULD sue them for copyright infringement.

Several things here ...

First of all: To make a claim based on IP law, you need to be the creator.
A picture being an NFT does not mean you are the creator, it just means you are the 'owner' in a way that is, so far, not legally defined by now.

Secondly, IP law works very different in different countries.
In the U.S., you can 'sell' your IP rights (if you are the creator) - that however is not possible in Germany.
In Germany, you can only sell a licence to profit from an IP, but the intellectual ownership of a piece is completely bound to a natural or legal person and cannot be 'transferred'.

Being the owner does not, in any way, mean that you are the creator and therefore does not grant you anything based on IP law.

So what would be the basis of such a lawsuit?


There is another aspect that is highly important.
An NFT picture (let's stick with pictures for now) might not even be protected under any IP laws.

For a picture to fall under IP law at all, the picture must meet a certain threshold of originality. Otherwise, the picture is public domain due to a lack of protectability.
Many of the pictures that are made into NFT pictures are certainly not protectable by IP law, due to their lack of reaching the aforementioned threshold.
You simply cannot sue anyone for using them in any way.

So why protect them by making them into an NFT when the law does not see them as protectable?
(I would even go so far to say that the ape does not fall under IP law, because it seems to be based on a template that is used over and over again. Just adding some colors or a tie or something like that is most likely not enough to reach the threshold.)

There is a huge field where that matters: AI generated pictures.
Right now, the few cases that where handled in courts in the U.S. and in some other countries are clear: No person has any IP rights on any AI generated picture, unless they have significantly altered it by hand.
You can sell them yourself, but you have no hold over them. (Unless the AI generator prohibits you from selling them and declares them public domain in the first place, like all pictures generated with a trial version of Midjourney.)
Others can use them as they like.

The pictures themselves are definitely worthy of being protected by IP law, but since a human did not create them, the law does not apply.

Turning them into an NFT, as well, grants you nothing. Not even ownership because anyone can freely use them as they like.
(There might be a chance that a severely complex prompt can be protected by IP law, but that is a different matter.)
Some NFTs also grant membership to discord channels or even real life clubs.
How do you prove ownership when you are, let's say, in front of a club?

You need some kind of connection between ...
- the piece of work
- the NFT and its address
- you as a person

Or is it like a bearer bond and you just have to prove that you have access to the piece? (By showing you are logged in or something)

As for what the token represents is stored in the metadata generated/returned by the contract for a given token.
Contract between which parties?

Reddit avatars are already NFTs under the covers
I do not understand.
What do you mean?
User avatar
 
By ikeya (David Kuck)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#598767
edgeofhearing wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 3:33 am
ikeya wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 11:47 pmRight now, NFTs are playthings of speculators, but I truly believe they are the future of digital assets. Reddit avatars are already NFTs under the covers and I see most video game items, retail loyalty programs, etc. all transitioning to NFTs in the coming years. It's just starting to get interesting. :)
There are a lot of ways to do digital rights management that aren't decentralized blockchain systems. I personally do not see any advantage in a blockchain-based system since a centralized system at least provides a recourse for cases of fraud. It doesn't have to be a bank or a government-run system (those certainly come with their own problems), but even with all their flaws I'm not sure what I'd trust more.
That's a fair statement. Fraud is certainly a concern currently, but there are solutions being worked on both from a blockchain side and end user side.
In the end it comes down to who you trust. The blockchain is an impartial arbiter that cannot be revoked by a centralized DRM system. I think of it like how TV studios will censor or remove episodes of a series after the fact. I don't trust governments or most large corporations, thus I personally like the idea of the decentralized blockchain.
User avatar
 
By ikeya (David Kuck)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#598768
Dukat wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 5:34 am Well ... I would say that poses kind of a philosphical question: What is an 'original' in terms of digital art?
...
The fact that it has a fixed address online means that a copy of the 'original' has a fixed address online.
This is where provenance of the blockchain comes into play. You can easily determine who deployed the original NFT "smart contract" onto the blockchain. For example, if you look at this NFT (which is also AI art) https://nft.coinbase.com/nft/ethereum/0 ... 389c64be/0, we can plug that contract address (0xc463...) into Etherscan.
https://etherscan.io/address/0xc4631e2d ... ce389c64be
You can see that the contract was deployed be me (davidkuck.eth) under the "Contract Creator" field. Someone else could copy the image, make an NFT, but only this one can be traced back to me.
Dukat wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 5:34 am First of all: To make a claim based on IP law, you need to be the creator.
...
Secondly, IP law works very different in different countries.
Totally fair. As far as NFTs go, I do think IP protection is not the primary use case anyway. This will continue to evolve in the courts.
Dukat wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 5:34 am
Some NFTs also grant membership to discord channels or even real life clubs.
How do you prove ownership when you are, let's say, in front of a club?
It depends how picky the venue wants to be. There are varying levels for which you could verify. It's public information on the blockchain which wallet holds a given token. At that point, all that needs to be validated is that I control the wallet. with the token in question. The easiest being that I can have my crypto wallet on my phone and validate that way. To be MORE sure, I could be asked to cryptographically sign a message from the wallet, providing indisputable proof that I control the wallet. There are some apps being developed to streamline this flow and this will continue to evolve to be more user friendly as time goes on.

Dukat wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 5:34 am
As for what the token represents is stored in the metadata generated/returned by the contract for a given token.
Contract between which parties?
Excellent question. The contract is the "smart contract" that is deployed on the blockchain. So you (via your wallet) are interacting with the smart contract on the blockchain. So the contract has been programmed to do something. In these cases, issue a certain number of NFTs and provide ownership and metadata.
Dukat wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 5:34 am
Reddit avatars are already NFTs under the covers
I do not understand.
What do you mean?
Reddit collectible avatars are NFTs residing on the Polygon blockchain. Reddit has done a great job abstracting this complexity away and selling them for fiat currency through a credit card. You can use your collectible avatar on Reddit and your Reddit account has a crypto wallet attached to it behind the scenes. You can also sell/trade your collectible avatar on the Polygon blockchain if you want to and know how to. But most users probably won't (at least not for some time).
Example: https://nft.coinbase.com/collection/pol ... a34c531967
Last edited by ikeya on Tue May 09, 2023 9:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
1EFQ: Game of two halves

Honestly, I don’t think I’ve re[…]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!

Happy birthday to @Takket ! :D :thumbsup: […]

Opponents turn

Remodulation

It started in mid-2013. At that time it became sta[…]