[nobthehobbit]

When we were hashing out the details of this project, the idea of allowing the TD to assign ticket winners was considered. In the end, the desire to eliminate work for the TD (and preclude errors) and make everything as automated as possible won out.

I'm not advocating having the TD choose which player gets the automatic ticket; I'm advocating having the TD choose which placing (if any) gets the ticket. One extra field in the tournament creation form, just as automated otherwise. The default setting can still be first place (though my personal preference would be to default to random).

[jjh]

Every tournament should have three tickets. One for the winner. One for the TD. One for a random non-winner, non-TD participant.

[flrazor]

I do appreciate the feedback from folks and I wanted to share some opinions on valid concerns. All is my opinion, not any official statement.

I am concerned our players may get discouraged at the prospect of not having a realistic shot at winning a tournament, and now, may not be able to win a raffle ticket for the same reason.

Why is it the winner is the one getting the reward? Isn't it the goal just to have more participation? The players that keep on trying, even though they don't win deserve something for their effort don't they?

The raffle is basically one extra prize/incentive for participating in tournaments and even with the physical tickets was doing the same thing it is intended to do now: encourage participation (the more players, the better chances), add an additional reward for good performance, and also to motivate players to register with the community. Previously (and not saying it was perfect either) Decipher would send out prizes to the winner of an event and 1-2 random players that were registered in their system. Anything beyond that was the responsibility of the TD, and personally I didn't get much beyond a couple random foils back then - we could buy packs but there wasn't often automatic prizes for everyone that didn't come at the TD's discretion/expense. There are still prizes to be awarded as the TD sees fit via kits and whatever else they decide to give, and they can ask for entry fees to cover those prize costs if they desire. If this was the only prize being awarded, then it might be a bigger issue.

What is the point of being stingy with the virtual raffel tickets? Why can't every player get one for playing in a sanctioned event? That would be more incentive to play don't you think? Giving everyone a raffle ticket wouldn't cost more, there wouldn't be more prizes, just more partipants that would have an interest in playing.

I'd offer as a counter to this that flooding the system with tickets also significantly decreases any one person's odds of winning and makes the prize of a ticket less scarce/valuable. There are only so many raffle prizes available, and more tickets does not guarantee a better chance at winning except those who hold the most tickets. Even people with a lot of tickets don't necessarily win things either. Many people have never gotten a prize even though they've gotten many tickets.

I'm not advocating having the TD choose which player gets the automatic ticket; I'm advocating having the TD choose which placing (if any) gets the ticket. One extra field in the tournament creation form, just as automated otherwise. The default setting can still be first place (though my personal preference would be to default to random).

I'd be worried that this could also encourage people to game the system to an extent. For example, if one was to be assigned for last place, then couldn't someone who really wanted the ticket and didn't care about anything else to just concede all their games? It would be less likely/harder to "rig" other placements (which would be more difficult to pre-assign without foreknowledge of attendance, or would have to be adjusted before an event started but after setting it up), but could still be possible. Not only does random assignment take the work out of the TD's hands, it also means there's no way that any favoritism could be claimed if someone close to the TD got a ticket. I don't expect a lot of this goes on, but anything is possible and some people are more motivated by reward than anything else.

[Brak_]

When we were hashing out the details of this project, the idea of allowing the TD to assign ticket winners was considered. In the end, the desire to eliminate work for the TD (and preclude errors) and make everything as automated as possible won out.

That said, the benefit of having multiple raffles per year is that we can evaluate the system more often. It is possible to implement changes after the first iteration.

I can understand that automating the process as much as possible is desirable to simplify things. But I think this is not the best option for automation.

At the very least, I would've like to see more open discussion about this before the decision was made to go ahead. I get that keeping it to the CC members to make the decision keeps it from getting too committee-style and bogged down. But there could've been a period to take input from people just to get opinions and views. Not all player groups are the same. In the end, you wouldn't have to abide by anyone's opinion, but it doesn't mean you can't make a thread saying "Here's what we're thinking of doing, what say you?"

Hell, you guys have a whole forum for Ambassadors, which are supposed to be kind of a Super TD as far as I can tell. Charlie even said that we Ambassadors will "work in and around your regions to spread the information we give you, and to bring us reports from the field on what's going on and what people think." When was the last time you asked our input on something before making a decision? If we're supposed to be your eyes and ears in the world, why aren't you using us to that end?

Though I suppose this is a discussion for another forum.

[nobthehobbit]

I'm not advocating having the TD choose which player gets the automatic ticket; I'm advocating having the TD choose which placing (if any) gets the ticket. One extra field in the tournament creation form, just as automated otherwise. The default setting can still be first place (though my personal preference would be to default to random).

I'd be worried that this could also encourage people to game the system to an extent. For example, if one was to be assigned for last place, then couldn't someone who really wanted the ticket and didn't care about anything else to just concede all their games? It would be less likely/harder to "rig" other placements (which would be more difficult to pre-assign without foreknowledge of attendance, or would have to be adjusted before an event started but after setting it up), but could still be possible. Not only does random assignment take the work out of the TD's hands, it also means there's no way that any favoritism could be claimed if someone close to the TD got a ticket. I don't expect a lot of this goes on, but anything is possible and some people are more motivated by reward than anything else.

As I noted above, all the tickets would still be random except for one that would be given to a placing chosen by the TD before the event--no possibility of favoritism.

As for concession, as I said, this is something that can probably be best dealt with within player groups. People come to tournaments to play games, not to have someone concede to them because they want to win a specific prize.

And for setting placings other than first or last, have the choices for the automatic ticket be random, #th place, and #th from last (1st from last understood to be last). If # exceeds the number of players, then #th place is understood to be last place, and #th from last is understood to be first place.

At no point does the TD choose any particular player to receive a ticket.

[Worf Son of Mogh]

As a player that win's a few 4 person tournaments, I would rather see that level be random, OR shift the whole thing slightly to have it be winner +1 random etc. down the line. It's less relivent for 2e but for 1e there are a lot of play groups from what I have seen that regularly get 4 players, and often have a primary dominant player, my group has about 8 main players and a couple who help out occationaly when we are one man short but don't really play other wise, but with life getting in the way most torunments end up with 4 people.

Still wondering about the priemium member ship bonus tickets if some one goes and just buys 3 1-year memberships basicaly donating the money to the CC, will they get 36 tickets right away, or will they only kick in as the member ship years are needed.
Also as was mentioned in another post if you have a free upgrade you dont get the 1 per month but if you also purces one would you then get them?

[LORE]

As for concession, as I said, this is something that can probably be best dealt with within player groups. People come to tournaments to play games, not to have someone concede to them because they want to win a specific prize.

People conceding games in the hopes of winning a raffle ticket that then might win them a bigger prize would be unquestionably pathetic.

[AllenGould]

As for concession, as I said, this is something that can probably be best dealt with within player groups. People come to tournaments to play games, not to have someone concede to them because they want to win a specific prize.

People conceding games in the hopes of winning a raffle ticket that then might win them a bigger prize would be unquestionably pathetic.

You're assuming that they had a realistic chance of winning the tournament.

Also, considering this whole thread is arguing about who should win the chance to possibly win a prize, we may not have reached the Pathetic Pass, but we left the Sad Straightaway in the dust a few klicks back...

[LORE]

Also, considering this whole thread is arguing about who should win the chance to possibly win a prize, we may not have reached the Pathetic Pass, but we left the Sad Straightaway in the dust a few klicks back...

LOL, so true! Moving on...

[bosskamiura]

Bottom line is, I'm disappointed with how the tickets will be given out. It is another case of where the power players are rewarded and the regular guy is left with nothing.

Thanks for reading.

Rick, conversely, I've participated in tournaments in Cardassia where after winning a tournament, i received nothing. After driving three hours and winning, received nothing. I don't think that kind of scenario encourages participation. I think the current system and the proposed system are equally as flawed.

Where is the incentive to win a tournament? Instead of rewarding the power players as you suggest the current system does, the system you propose punishes those power players. Both systems hurt someone.

TK

[Naetor]

I think it would be cool if every tournament participant received a raffle ticket -- or maybe every participant who contributed a decklist or tournament report.

I also think it might be smart to implement a (reasonable) cap.

[Lejo]

Fantastic work by Lobban Programming Industries! Based on everything I have read about it, we are fortunate to have a more efficient Raffle system.

Let me preface the following by pointing out that with the exception of tickets earned through Premium Memberships, players have the opportunity to earn tickets at no cost to themselves. Therefore, the CC is providing a little extra in prize support to our community at its own expense. I am thankful for this. There were a number of Decipher-era individuals who dishonestly hoarded product that was intended to be distributed at tournaments. Shameful. An automated system provides an additional deterrent to repeating these dishonest behaviors.

Fairness
It seems to me that this system will bring a greater degree of fairness to how tickets are distributed than before. For example, when a Tournament Kit was requisitioned, we collectively had to assume that tickets would be distributed by a Tournament Director. However, it cannot be denied that the opportunity for dishonesty and impropriety existed. Someone could pad their total or even be a non-participant and still win a prize. For instance, Alphacardz winning two prizes during the last raffle instead of a multitude of more deserving individuals who participated in tournaments. I understand some opinions being shared, but a raffle is still a game of chance. I rather like the notion that an active player who participates a lot has a greater capacity to earn tickets than someone who participates less. Oh, and we have four opportunities per year instead of an ambiguous and infrequent raffle during the year. No complaints from me.

Rewards
I do not consider a raffle to be a means of added incentive tournament participation. It should be a fun afterthought to what we would hope was a fun local tournament. When it comes to "prize support" that is something that should really fall to the TD, not the CC, to provide. What I mean to say is, if you want to add incentives for participation, you might have to get a little creative. You might have to pay a little bit out of your own pocket. You might have to ask for feedback from your local players (or players willing to commute some distance to your venue) as to what would get them to participate. I strongly suggest all TDs (or prospective ones) solicit ideas from other playgroups as to what helps to encourage participation. For example, some play groups alternate between 1E and 2E every other scheduled tournament; format might alternate between constructed, draft, or sealed; some groups may have side competitions for diversifying deck builds/affiliations played, etc. etc. etc.

The burden of providing incentives (i.e. prizes) and encouraging participation, as well as rewarding players for participating should be shared amongst a TD and their play group (i.e. recruitment efforts, donations, or "fees"), not the CC though the raffle.

[Corbinq27]

I am curious if tickets are transferable. In other words, can I give up a few of my tickets to eventual podcast contestants / listeners or even tournament participants / winners?

[T-Ricks]

Bottom line is, I'm disappointed with how the tickets will be given out. It is another case of where the power players are rewarded and the regular guy is left with nothing.

Thanks for reading.

Rick, conversely, I've participated in tournaments in Cardassia where after winning a tournament, i received nothing. After driving three hours and winning, received nothing. I don't think that kind of scenario encourages participation. I think the current system and the proposed system are equally as flawed.

Where is the incentive to win a tournament? Instead of rewarding the power players as you suggest the current system does, the system you propose punishes those power players. Both systems hurt someone.

TK

TK,

As a TD, I can't speak for all of Cardassia, but I can say that every one of my tournaments has optional prize support at a cost well below the value of said support. No player has ever walked away without something unless that was their choice.

For me, the incentive for winning is that it is fun. It's nice when a deck design actually works. I don't care if I get anything for it. For others, the incentive might be achievements or a higher ranking in the system. I guess I just want everyone to have an equal shot at a raffle ticket, that's all.

[SirDan]

Lots are up. Some of the image links appear to be busted, but the descriptions should be complete.