You've played at the local, regional, and continental levels. Are you ready to take on the best in the world? Find out all the details about the 2021 World Championships, taking place in Chicago.
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Director of Organized Play
By LORE (Kris Sonsteby)
 - Director of Organized Play
 -  
Architect
1E Andoria Regional Champion 2023
2E Andoria Regional Champion 2023
W.C.T. Chairman's Trophy winner 2014-2015
#388120
Brackets are garbage. The game was made to be played in a timed game environment.
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Director of Organized Play
By LORE (Kris Sonsteby)
 - Director of Organized Play
 -  
Architect
1E Andoria Regional Champion 2023
2E Andoria Regional Champion 2023
W.C.T. Chairman's Trophy winner 2014-2015
#388121
monty42 wrote:It also takes players outside of their comfort zone having to adapt to different scenarios.
If you truly believed that you wanted the World Champion to be someone capable of adapting on the fly, you would have no issue with Day 2 being a Sealed Draft tournament. There is no greater level playing field than that.

Instead, you are arguing with the bias that you want the World Championship meta to mirror the European meta. Not gonna happen.
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By Naetor
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#388122
It makes sense to me. In the scenario of 8 players, 4 rounds -- if you cannot manage a full win, you get 12 VP and lose to someone 3-1 who got all full wins (13 VPs), even if you beat them. This is the penalty on playing a deck that cannot win in an hour. You still win so long as you FW just a few games. OP and the population has rightfully decided that if you can't achieve this, then you are not worthy of winning.
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By Marquetry
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#388126
The issues with bracket play instead of swiss, and what players prefer, are something that has been discussed for years (I remember discussions on this as early as 2012? 2013?) well before Michael & Ken had anything to do with OP.
A lot of this seems to be personally aimed, not sure why.


Also :thumbsup: :thumbsup: to what Kris said.
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Second Edition Art Manager
By edgeofhearing (Lucas Thompson)
 - Second Edition Art Manager
 -  
Community Contributor
#388127
In general, I prefer swiss finals for the reasons others have stated (makes full wins matter, promotes the sort of decks that do well in all other tournaments). I will say though that it felt a little bit anticlimactic at Continentals last year to play the 3rd game knowing that all I needed to do was put any points on the board to win overall. Bracket play definitely has an edge in the drama department, that's just not enough for me to prefer it to swiss.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#388128
monty42 wrote:
Worf Son of Mogh wrote:
monty42 wrote: But I'm challenging everybody to take a good hard look at the way we're conducting our championships.
Actually that's exactly what we did...
Who's we?
I'm just trying to figure out whether this is something that's in the best interest of the entire community. Or something that's favored by the Washington/B.C. crew?
Clarifying Question: Was the Euro Continental director (and the Aussie Continental Director, if applicable) involved in the decision to revert to Swiss? I don't remember the specifics of who was in what position when the decision was made. If it was just Mike and Ken (because they were the only active OP folks), were the non-NA communities consulted?
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By Naetor
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#388130
edgeofhearing wrote:In general, I prefer swiss finals for the reasons others have stated (makes full wins matter, promotes the sort of decks that do well in all other tournaments). I will say though that it felt a little bit anticlimactic at Continentals last year to play the 3rd game knowing that all I needed to do was put any points on the board to win overall. Bracket play definitely has an edge in the drama department, that's just not enough for me to prefer it to swiss.
3 rounds Swiss round robin still has issues. At 2-0 you'll be paired against the 0-2 player, and going all MW (9 VPs) will win it. Top 8, 4 rounds makes the most sense to me.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#388131
nobthehobbit wrote:Just a thought: if there's a tie on VPs at the end of the Day 2 Swiss, the top two play for the title.
If there was a two way tie, I don't see a way (assuming the pairings were done correctly) that this happens - the tied players should have played each other at some point so you should be able to have a H2H winner (unless they True Tied - it's been known to happen).

The problem with Worlds last year is that it was a Three Way tie. I just went back and looked at the results. Had Justin also not finished with 13 points it would be moot and Stefan would have won on head to head. I think any tiebreaker system should attempt to use head-to-head whenever possible, resorting to SoS, Differential, etc. only when two tied players didn't directly play. Put another way, I'm more sympathetic to Ben's argument of unfairness than I was going in, I'm just not sure his proposed solution (going back to brackets) is necessarily the right answer.

Maybe tweak the OP Tiebreaker rules such that any multi-way tie is ranked according to SoS and then drop the lowest SoS (in this case Justin) and review the top two for a H2H and apply if necessary. In that scenario, Stefan would have won on tiebreakers instead of Mike, but it would be the H2H tiebreaker. Again, hard to argue with that one. This is already done if there's a 3 way tie with 2 players tied on SoS, why not make it applicable in all cases?

Food for thought...
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By Jono (Sean O'Reilly)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Pioneer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#388135
Armus wrote:
nobthehobbit wrote:Just a thought: if there's a tie on VPs at the end of the Day 2 Swiss, the top two play for the title.
If there was a two way tie, I don't see a way (assuming the pairings were done correctly) that this happens - the tied players should have played each other at some point so you should be able to have a H2H winner (unless they True Tied - it's been known to happen).

The problem with Worlds last year is that it was a Three Way tie. I just went back and looked at the results. Had Justin also not finished with 13 points it would be moot and Stefan would have won on head to head. I think any tiebreaker system should attempt to use head-to-head whenever possible, resorting to SoS, Differential, etc. only when two tied players didn't directly play. Put another way, I'm more sympathetic to Ben's argument of unfairness than I was going in, I'm just not sure his proposed solution (going back to brackets) is necessarily the right answer.

Maybe tweak the OP Tiebreaker rules such that any multi-way tie is ranked according to SoS and then drop the lowest SoS (in this case Justin) and review the top two for a H2H and apply if necessary. In that scenario, Stefan would have won on tiebreakers instead of Mike, but it would be the H2H tiebreaker. Again, hard to argue with that one. This is already done if there's a 3 way tie with 2 players tied on SoS, why not make it applicable in all cases?

Food for thought...
This normally only becomes a problem in four-person tournaments going three rounds where every played everyone else and records are 2-1, 2-1, 2-1 and 0-3; or in a five-person tournament with four rounds where the opponent's strength of schedule will likely be the same as every played everyone else.

I agree with Ken the goal should be to encourage full wins and elimination does not do that since a modified win in that format is equal to a full win.

I also agree we could look how the tie-breaking system works. I recently won a tournament because of differential. However, at some point there DOES have to be a tie-breaking system due to time limits. That's why a shootout is used in hockey and penalty kicks in soccer. It is a necessary evil (no pun intended).
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By monty42 (Benjamin Liebich)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
2E World Quarter-Finalist 2023
Chancellor
2E European Continental Runner-Up 2023
2E German National Champion 2022
#388136
First of all this whole argument started with me saying that my personal preference is bracket over swiss on day 2.
That's my opinion and I stand behind it.
Why people are coming at me like they're kids in a sandbox and I'm trying to take their shovel away I have no idea.
I'm not trying to change anything, I'm not trying to take your toys away and I sure as hell wasn't going to make this yet another US vs the world thing. To be honest that really gets old.
I think these past two pages in a nutshell depict a lot of things that are wrong with the 2E community at least as far as whats happening on the boards.

@Kris: I don't know what your problem is or why you're throwing these acusations my way.
I have no intentions of changing anything to something else. This whole "your meta, my meta" thing is something that keeps being brought up by people and I couldn't care less.
I believe a world champion should be able to win no matter what meta he's playing in.

@Amber: You are absolutely right that these discussions have taken place for a long time. However it was never deemed neccessary to change the format up until last year when Ken was already director of OP.
As I repeatedly said, this is nothing personal! I don't have anything against Ken or Michael or you for that matter. I've had a lot of fun with you guys at worlds last year but I'm questioning a decision made by OP.
And who else should I direct this at, if not the director of OP?

@Brian: Thanks for taking the time and actually looking at what I'm talking about rather than arguing just to argue like a lot of people here seem to enjoy.
I much rather discuss facts than emotions but sadly it seems like a lot of people that come here are incapable of doing that.

Over the past couple of hours I've though a lot about why I actually keep coming back to the boards, to the constant bickering, the pointless discussions and the annoying arrogance of some people who seem to believe they are somehow better than everybody else just because they were born in a specific part of the world.
It also got me thinking about whether or not I still want to make my trip to Florida because frankly as a non-american I don't feel very welcome at the moment.
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By Jono (Sean O'Reilly)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Pioneer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#388138
monty42 wrote: Over the past couple of hours I've though a lot about why I actually keep coming back to the boards, to the constant bickering, the pointless discussions and the annoying arrogance of some people who seem to believe they are somehow better than everybody else just because they were born in a specific part of the world.
It also got me thinking about whether or not I still want to make my trip to Florida because frankly as a non-american I don't feel very welcome at the moment.
Benjamin- You are VERY welcome to have an opinion. I think the people here have taken your opinion seriously. That is why there has been a discussion about it. I hope you don't feel there has been personal attacks (beside a little joking that they believe they can beat you in October - which you can prove them wrong).

Regarding tiebreakers - I think everyone could agree the WORST World Championship outcome was the one decided by seeding when two players during a elimination bracket played a Best of 3 and true tied in all three games and had the title determined by the higher seeded player. That is a tiebreaker I hope we never repeat again.

I hope do NOT cancel your trip to Orlando over this - because we here in Florida really do want to this to be a WORLD championship with players coming from multiple countries and multiple continents.
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Director of Organized Play
By LORE (Kris Sonsteby)
 - Director of Organized Play
 -  
Architect
1E Andoria Regional Champion 2023
2E Andoria Regional Champion 2023
W.C.T. Chairman's Trophy winner 2014-2015
#388142
monty42 wrote:@Kris: I don't know what your problem is or why you're throwing these acusations my way.
I don't know you, I have no beef with you. My point is simply that your arguments seem entirely self serving. If they weren't intended that way, I apologize.

I read your affinity for bracket play as pandering to an environment you are comfortable with and have an edge in. It's no different than if I were to advocate strongly for Worlds to be run as sealed tournaments. Anyone who bothered to look would see that I do very well in that environment, and would jump to the same conclusion.
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By sexecutioner (Niall Matthew)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
1E World Runner-Up 2023
1E European Continental Semi-Finalist 2023
1E British National Second Runner-Up 2023
#388156
monty42 wrote:Over the past couple of hours I've though a lot about why I actually keep coming back to the boards, to the constant bickering, the pointless discussions and the annoying arrogance of some people who seem to believe they are somehow better than everybody else just because they were born in a specific part of the world.
It also got me thinking about whether or not I still want to make my trip to Florida because frankly as a non-american I don't feel very welcome at the moment.
Don't know about you, but I'm going because I get a kick out of out-partying Americans ;)

In kinda the same way that you got a kick out of playing certain cards in Cards Against Humanity last year.

Don't change your mind, get your ass to Florida.

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