You've played at the local, regional, and continental levels. Are you ready to take on the best in the world? Find out all the details about the 2021 World Championships, taking place in Chicago.
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By CaptMDKirk (Matt Kirk)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Architect
#388096
monty42 wrote:All I'm saying is that when it comes to championships I'm in favor of eliminaton rather than swiss.
I believe it's only fitting that when you want to call yourself the World Champion, you should have beaten everybody fair and square.
Elimination rounds invite more players to play slower decks because it's not a Swiss event and MW mean the same as FW (and TT can even mean the same if you're the higher seed). Swiss finals more closely represent the actual normal metagame.

In multiple day Magic events, players have to use the same deck throughout. I think if this were the case for Trek, some people might be more receptive to a bracketed Top 8 (or whatever).
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By monty42 (Benjamin Liebich)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
2E World Quarter-Finalist 2023
Chancellor
2E European Continental Runner-Up 2023
2E German National Champion 2022
#388099
Elimination requires a different style of play.
I don't see where that's a bad thing.
It opens doors to play decks that most of the time probably won't be seen in high level events.
It also takes players outside of their comfort zone having to adapt to different scenarios.

I firmly believe that if you want to call yourself the champion, you have to be able to handle slow decks as well as fast decks. Solvers as well as interaction.

Swiss tournaments tend to attract speed solvers. Elimination opens the door to a broader approach and I appreciate that.

I much rather play my day 2 against Maquis lockout, Borg assimilator and Klingon battle rather than three Jaeger Bombs.
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By CaptMDKirk (Matt Kirk)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Architect
#388102
monty42 wrote:I much rather play my day 2 against Maquis lockout, Borg assimilator and Klingon battle rather than three Jaeger Bombs.
This is where the main argument for a Swiss Day 2 arises. The three decks you named would not do well in a Swiss format (i.e. 99% of tournament Trek); why should the most prestigious games have a vastly different metagame from the rest of 2E tournaments? The Swiss advocates would argue that it shouldn't; top-level Trek should exemplify the best of the current metagame that players face week in and week out.

(Playing devil's advocate here, Kahless knows I've benefitted from Day 2 control decks in elimination events.)
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By Naetor
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#388103
monty42 wrote:Elimination requires a different style of play.
I don't see where that's a bad thing.
It opens doors to play decks that most of the time probably won't be seen in high level events.
It also takes players outside of their comfort zone having to adapt to different scenarios.
This would be equivalent to having normal constructed events throughout the year, then have the World Championship decided by Academy format.
monty42 wrote:I firmly believe that if you want to call yourself the champion, you have to be able to handle slow decks as well as fast decks. Solvers as well as interaction.
Sure, but why change the normal OP and 1 hour gameplay guidelines for one event per year (the most important ones).
monty42 wrote:Swiss tournaments tend to attract speed solvers. Elimination opens the door to a broader approach and I appreciate that.
Why should the meta change for one event? The World Championship.
monty42 wrote:I much rather play my day 2 against Maquis lockout, Borg assimilator and Klingon battle rather than three Jaeger Bombs.
Haha! You should play 1e if you like Trek solitaire.
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By monty42 (Benjamin Liebich)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
2E World Quarter-Finalist 2023
Chancellor
2E European Continental Runner-Up 2023
2E German National Champion 2022
#388105
Naetor wrote:This would be equivalent to having normal constructed events throughout the year, then have the World Championship decided by Academy format.
No it wouldn't.
Naetor wrote:Sure, but why change the normal OP and 1 hour gameplay guidelines for one event per year (the most important ones).
Nobody's changing anything.
Naetor wrote:Why should the meta change for one event? The World Championship.
Your meta might change, mine doesn't. If you'd try to look outside of your box, you might see that. There are different approaches to this game than what you deem right.
Naetor wrote:Haha! You should play 1e if you like Trek solitaire.
If you'd rather play every match against the same deck you're probably in the wrong business
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By Naetor
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#388106
monty42 wrote:Your meta might change, mine doesn't. If you'd try to look outside of your box, you might see that. There are different approaches to this game than what you deem right.
We had elimination for years. People didn't like it, so OP changed it. If the big boys from the US show up, you won't have to worry about the Day 2 format anyways.
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By monty42 (Benjamin Liebich)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
2E World Quarter-Finalist 2023
Chancellor
2E European Continental Runner-Up 2023
2E German National Champion 2022
#388107
Naetor wrote:If the big boys from the US show up, you won't have to worry about the Day 2 format anyways.
That's cute, I like that!
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By monty42 (Benjamin Liebich)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
2E World Quarter-Finalist 2023
Chancellor
2E European Continental Runner-Up 2023
2E German National Champion 2022
#388108
Naetor wrote:We had elimination for years. People didn't like it, so OP changed it. If the big boys from the US show up, you won't have to worry about the Day 2 format anyways.
Aww man, you really gave it away. You should never drop your gameface like that. Up until this point it really almost looked like you were arguing a point.
I kinda suspected you were only about us vs them.
Ya almost had me :thumbsup:
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By Marquetry
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#388112
Match play/elimination brackets had become it's own meta; you could go in with a slow deck that would never get full wins and still do well. It's not reflective of play the other 99% of tournaments in the year.

I hope Swiss stays around for top events, and I'm glad Worlds this year will be run this way. (And honestly, why have some of the arguments sounded like they're about 1 or 2 people? If Michael hadn't gotten nervous and would have solved a planet 2nd, this wouldn't even be a point in the debate).

The debates have been done to death in the past years.. yay Swiss, glad to be going to Worlds this year!
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By monty42 (Benjamin Liebich)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
2E World Quarter-Finalist 2023
Chancellor
2E European Continental Runner-Up 2023
2E German National Champion 2022
#388113
Marquetry wrote:Match play/elimination brackets had become it's own meta; you could go in with a slow deck that would never get full wins and still do well.
That's the beauty of it.
Marquetry wrote:It's not reflective of play the other 99% of tournaments in the year.
Who says that it has to be? Again, I believe it's a good thing that the road to a championship consists of more than just the usual. Versatility is a big part of being a good player in this game, let alone a champion.
Marquetry wrote:And honestly, why have some of the arguments sounded like they're about 1 or 2 people? If Michael hadn't gotten nervous and would have solved a planet 2nd, this wouldn't even be a point in the debate.
First of all I'm glad Mikey is the World Champion. He deserves it and he should have been it a couple of times already.
But if we are totally honest, he messed up. If it would have been an elimination round, Stefan would have been the champion. Stefan has won every single game while Mikey threw one away. The way we're doing it right now we're valuing a loss over a bunch of mod wins and I don't think that's the way to go.

We've done elimination for ages and always had worthy champions. Now we've done swiss for one year and had an iffy result. It might not be a big enough sample size. So I'm ok with going swiss this year. Would I prefer bracket? Absolutely. But I'm challenging everybody to take a good hard look at the way we're conducting our championships.
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By Naetor
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#388114
monty42 wrote:
Naetor wrote:We had elimination for years. People didn't like it, so OP changed it. If the big boys from the US show up, you won't have to worry about the Day 2 format anyways.
Aww man, you really gave it away. You should never drop your gameface like that. Up until this point it really almost looked like you were arguing a point.
I kinda suspected you were only about us vs them.
Ya almost had me :thumbsup:
Prove me wrong and make Day 2. I like lively competition.
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By monty42 (Benjamin Liebich)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
2E World Quarter-Finalist 2023
Chancellor
2E European Continental Runner-Up 2023
2E German National Champion 2022
#388115
Naetor wrote:
monty42 wrote:
Naetor wrote:We had elimination for years. People didn't like it, so OP changed it. If the big boys from the US show up, you won't have to worry about the Day 2 format anyways.
Aww man, you really gave it away. You should never drop your gameface like that. Up until this point it really almost looked like you were arguing a point.
I kinda suspected you were only about us vs them.
Ya almost had me :thumbsup:
Prove me wrong and make Day 2. I like lively competition.
Don't worry, I'm planning on. If you like lively competition so much, how 'bout you come to europe then?
 
By Worf Son of Mogh (Kenneth Tufts)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
The Traveler
1E North American Continental Runner-Up 2023
2E North American Continental Runner-Up 2023
1E Canadian National Runner-Up 2023
2E Canadian National Runner-Up 2023
#388117
monty42 wrote: But I'm challenging everybody to take a good hard look at the way we're conducting our championships.
Actually that's exactly what we did, and found that the majority of events would be better with out the brackets. However they are not gone compleatly, while OP strongly recommends Swiss for day two events at this time elimination brackets are still allowed.
Also what Swiss values more is not losses over wins but full wins over a lot of mod wins. Even one less mod win and things change dramatically so it's not anti slower deck it is only anti decks that don't have any intent to actually try and win fully, OP found that those decks were considered a bad meta by the vast majority of players, a slower interference deck is still fully viable it just should try and get at least one full win to ensure victory. And since the core goal of the game is to get a full win from an OP perspective, OP thusly now favours a tournaments format that favoures that.

-Ken
DoOP
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By nobthehobbit (Daniel Pareja)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Moderator
#388118
Just a thought: if there's a tie on VPs at the end of the Day 2 Swiss, the top two play for the title.
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By monty42 (Benjamin Liebich)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
2E World Quarter-Finalist 2023
Chancellor
2E European Continental Runner-Up 2023
2E German National Champion 2022
#388119
Worf Son of Mogh wrote:
monty42 wrote: But I'm challenging everybody to take a good hard look at the way we're conducting our championships.
Actually that's exactly what we did...
Who's we?
I'm just trying to figure out whether this is something that's in the best interest of the entire community. Or something that's favored by the Washington/B.C. crew?
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